Posted on 09/12/2007 4:06:00 AM PDT by beachdweller
This is a religious vanity post I suppose. I am a Christian raised mainly Baptist with some attendance at other denominations. I have, in the course of my life, had a couple of experiences of the intercession of the Holy Virgin for my help and Protection. I have also witnessed the Mass a few times as an outsider and felt drawn away from my Protestant identity. The order and sense of Apostolic succession appeals to me in the Church as opposed to the churches. However, my main point of confusion now is whether to draw close to the Roman Catholic Church, or the Orthodox. I feel questions about both, and drawn to both. I sincerely ask for advice. I feel unsure about the supremacy of the Pope (a great man) as opposed to the consensus of Bishops and the church. At the same time, while the Orthodox Church seems to have an unbroken link to Christ and a moving celebration of God, why is the RCC so much more numerous and successful. I see beauty and real authority in both, but am unsure which way to go. At the same time I am NOT trying to cause conflict among Christ's servants and ask that anyone responding be respectful of the other side. Also please, my Protestant brethren who may object to this subject I ask you do not attack me or anyone who answers in this thread. One last thing, I live in San Diego and any direction where to go for guidance here would be appreciated. Thanks and go with Christ.
I'm curious as to how this worked.
Thanks. They are compelling arguments.
Why do you think it was Mary?
God does not send dead humans back to protect us. Please consider that you are being led by something else.
In other news: You don't think being "full of Grace" make one holy? Is it, so to speak, de fide among Baptist that Mary did not remain a virgin?
And we've already done the thing about asking people to pray for one -- done it to death.
BTW "Yeah, right" doesn't strike me as saying anything more than, "I don't believe you and think it preposterous that you would expect me to." That is problematic intrinsically. IMHO the RM made a good call.
Ceremony and circumstance? Perhaps it's what you feel to be real worship via kneeling and submission?
You are exactly right, and it's hardly the same as intercession.
So you are agreeing that he has been involved with the Catholic and/or Orthodox church for some time. That was my point.
You don't think being "full of Grace" make one holy?
All believers are holy, i.e. set apart for God. I guess that means that everyone should call me "Holy MEGoody."
Is it, so to speak, de fide among Baptist that Mary did not remain a virgin?
No, but no Baptist would use the term "Holy Virgin". They would simply call her Mary. (Just as no Baptist would call Abraham "Father Abraham" as the Jews do, yet scripture says that believers are children of Abraham.)
And we've already done the thing about asking people to pray for one
Then I have to wonder why I never hear Catholics or Orthodox go on about the 'intercession' of the next door neighbor the way they do the 'intercession' of Mary. Of course, it is because they view her 'intercession' as something other than just asking someone to pray for them.
IMHO the RM made a good call.
He's the RM and makes the call. That's why I restated it. As to your take on what I said in my original post, I won't dispute it.
Your best bet (IMHO) would be to attend both a Roman Catholic Mass and an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and determine for yourself which moves you closer to God. Ultimately, that’s the result which matters the most.
There is an error in that graphic: there is no such thing as the Yugoslav Orthodox Church.
So do you have a problem with Patrick making a living and supporting his wife and eleven children?
I notice you left out the Dutch.
My apologies. I did not mean to slight your ancestors.
That doesn’t change my point in the slightest.
His entire site is a store! Not one link to a testimony, presentation audio, or even transcript of an after-dinner speech. Just “you are not logged in” and “go to shopping cart.” Guess apologetics is a business now.
But, out of fairness, I won’t talk behind Mr. Madrid’s back.
All believers are holy, i.e. set apart for God. I guess that means that everyone should call me "Holy MEGoody."
This intrigues me a lot. Is it fair to say that it's a Baptist notion that everyone in heaven is equal in all respects? Not that were identical or the same, but we're all certainly holy to the same degree? So star may differ from star in brightness, but this little light of mine is no dimmer or brighter than that of, say Holy Joseph or of some martyr?
So you are agreeing that he has been involved with the Catholic and/or Orthodox church for some time. That was my point.
Darn, this is so vague as to be hard to disagree with - or agree with. "Some time", of course. But whether that "some time" is a couple of months, of years, or of decades I wouldn't presume to say.
Then I have to wonder why I never hear Catholics or Orthodox go on about the 'intercession' of the next door neighbor the way they do the 'intercession' of Mary. Of course, it is because they view her 'intercession' as something other than just asking someone to pray for them.
"Of course"?
I'd guess there are two possible areas of difference, I would guess. There could be something different about Mary or something different about what or how one asks her v. what or how one asks the guy next door. Certainly, the "prayers of the people" in the Mass are referred to as "intercessions" and qualified as "intercessory". You may have been hanging out around Catholics "for some time", but maybe the "some" wasn't enough to learn how we think.
And one of the things we think is that, after Jesus, Mary is a pioneer of Faith, that she already realizes and in a very great degree what is promised to all the Faithful. And then we believe that on the basis of personal conviction or of a sho' 'nuff offishul declaration that we can be confident that folks like Catherine Laboure or Dominic or Mary are in a somehow stronger position than our neighbor next door to intercede for us.
So the difference arises from matters of degree both in the the quality of intercession and in the persons making the intercession, but there is no difference in the essence of the act of asking someone to pray for us - or even, as we sometimes do - asking God to use the intercessions of others to help us.
And again, I think a lot of Protestant data about RCs may be skewed in that some things stick out like a sore thumb. Yesterday I spent maybe 40+ minutes in "reading my office", 20 minutes saying the rosary, 35 minutes (almost exactly) at Mass during which two mentions was made of our Lady. Bunches of other saints were mentioned as well.
What sticks out is the rosary, I'm sure, but at least in terms of time spent, it's a minor part of my total devotional, uh, package.
It's always good to see what we look like to others. Good, but weird!
In instances such as this, this is where you need to turn. Keep her in mind and ask for her guidance and protection. Get a blessed icon if you can. She is and will lead you to where you are meant to be.
I have also witnessed the Mass a few times as an outsider and felt drawn away from my Protestant identity.
That is the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament. The grace is a strong attraction.
However, my main point of confusion now is whether to draw close to the Roman Catholic Church, or the Orthodox. I feel questions about both, and drawn to both.
It's time to start studying. Church History and catechisms are a good place to start. My priest recommends "Church History" by Fr. Laux and "My Catholic Faith" catechism which includes Scriptural support for Catholic beliefs. The Baltimore catechism is good too. The Eastern Catholics and Orthodox can give you recommendations for beginners in their approach.
One last thing, I live in San Diego and any direction where to go for guidance here would be appreciated.
You have some Traditional Catholic Masses in your area, one daily beginning this Friday. http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=2729b749-b157-4312-aa49-b6184def7d8e This Ecclesia Dei site gives a listing of the Traditional Masses in various dioceses http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm#California Go to different liturgies in your area, Catholic, Eastern Catholic and Orthodox. Eastern Catholic may be a happy medium for you if you are drawn to the Eastern style. When you find a liturgy which draws you, introduce yourself to the priest, tell him you are discerning a spiritual home and ask for guidance.
Read, explore and pray. You will end up where you are meant to be. You will know it in your being.
My son in law doesn't like the "feel" of services at protestant churches. It's all about the feel. I think a lot of people really like the religousness of ornate decorations, robes, Latin, and such.
If you define 'holy' as set apart for God, yes, because HE does the setting apart. If you have some other definition of holy, my response might change.
So star may differ from star in brightness, but this little light of mine is no dimmer or brighter than that of, say Holy Joseph or of some martyr?
Depends on what you mean by 'light'. Jesus is the Light of the world, so in that respect, yes it is the same for all believers. If you are refering to the rewards we get in heaven for our works, no, it is not the same for all.
But whether that "some time" is a couple of months, of years, or of decades I wouldn't presume to say.
"Some time" means one has been attending regularly for awhile (could be months or years), not that one has visited once or twice in a mix with visiting other churches.
There could be something different about Mary or something different about what or how one asks her v. what or how one asks the guy next door.
Yes, there is a difference. Mary has passed on to eternity while the guy next door hasn't. I don't see anything in the bible that says one person praying for you versus another is any different except where the bible says "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much".
that she already realizes and in a very great degree what is promised to all the Faithful.
Yes, as do all believers who have passed on. As to the effectiveness of intercessory prayers said by Mary as opposed to faithful believers currently living on earth, it seems to be a belief that is different between Protestants and Catholics.
Sometimes a "feeling" is really the Holy Ghost urging you to move towards Him. The Catholic mass is worship in the fullest sense because it involves sacrifice, the very real events of Calvary. That said, I've been to plenty of "Catholic" masses that didn't "feel" right!
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