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To: suzyjaruki
“”I just read a chapter on church history saying Irenaeus was martyred after writing “Against Heresies,” in which he defended the church by using scripture””

Perhaps you should read what Blessed Saint Irenueas really said. It was not solo scripture at all

St. Irenaeus writes as if he was anticipating the Solo Scripture error of Protestantism.

According to Irenaeus, Tradition is substantive in content, normative in authority and continues to live in the Catholic Church

Take a look......

“When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of TRADITION...It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture or tradition” (Against Heresies 3,2:1).

“Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the TRADITION which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?” (Against Heresies 3,4:1).

“But, again, when we refer them to that TRADITION which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the successions of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying they themselves are wiser...” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,2:2).

“His testimony, therefore, is true, and the doctrine of the apostles is open and steadfast, holding nothing in reserve; nor did they teach one set of doctrines in private, and another in public” (Against Heresies 3,15:1).

Here is what a few other Church Fathers had to say...

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture BUT FROM TRADITION, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary COUNCILS, THE AUTHORITY OF WHICH IS QUITE VITAL TO THE CHURCH.”
Letter of Augustine to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

“I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices NOT FOUND IN THEIR WRITINGS nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves.”
St. Augustine, Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.

“But what is also to the point, let us note that the very TRADITION, teaching and faith of the CATHOLIC CHURCH from the beginning, WHICH THE LORD GAVE, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1,28, 359 A.D.

St. Gregory of Nyssa(c.A.D. 335-394),brother of St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Catholic Church and bishop of Nyssa writes:

“[F]or it is enough for proof of our statement, that the TRADITION has come down to us from our fathers, handed on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them. They, on the other hand, who change their doctrines to this novelty, would need the support of arguments in abundance, if they were about to bring over to their views, not men light as dust, and unstable, but men of weight and steadiness: but so long as their statement is advanced without being established, and without being proved, who is so foolish and so brutish as to account the teaching of the evangelists and apostles, and of those who have successively shone like lights in the churches, of less force than this undemonstrated nonsense?” (Against Eunomius,4:6).

“Of the dogmas and kergymas preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the Apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in manners ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject the unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the Gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce kergyma to a mere term” (Holy Spirt 27:66).

Likewise Tertullian writes.....

“Error of doctrine in the churches must necessarily have produced various issues. When, however, that which is deposited among many is found to be one and the same, it is not the result of error, but of tradition. Can any one, then, be reckless enough to say that they were in error who handed on the tradition” (Prescription against the Heretics,28).

197 posted on 10/09/2007 8:21:38 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: stfassisi; suzyjaruki
“When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of TRADITION...

Does that refrain sould familiar??? That could be said of the Catholic magisterium throughout history and today. And Irenaeus was talking about the heretics in his day.

It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture or tradition” (Against Heresies 3,2:1).

By "tradition" Irenaeus meant the customs and practices that had come from the Apostles not the customs and practices that future religionists in the church would dredge up out of their imagination and from the religions of the ancient mysteries.

Didn't Irenaeus say that in matters of importance the church should defer to the "writings of the Apostles"? How are you doing with that Tradition of deferring to the scriptures in matters of importance??? Here it is from your post; read it carefully:

“Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, to follow the course of the TRADITION which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?” (Against Heresies 3,4:1).

Irenaeus says that that "course of Tradition" that was handed down to the churches was to "defer to the writings of the Apostles" which had been handed down to the Churches as well.

Your magisterium not only can't interpret the scriptures properly, but they also need help understanding the patriarchs and tradition. Glad I could be of assistance.

232 posted on 10/10/2007 5:20:52 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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