Russian Church: Constantinople ruins talks with Catholics

interfax ^ | 23 October 2007 | interfax

[kawaii]

23 October 2007 Russian Church: Constantinople ruins talks with Catholics

Moscow, October 22, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church representative to European institutions accused the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople on Monday of seeking to establish itself as the top authority in the world's Orthodox communion and of ruining Orthodox-Roman Catholic dialogue.

The representative, Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria, was referring to the 10th meeting of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

The delegation of the Moscow Patriarchate withdrew from the meeting, held in Ravenna, Italy, in protest against the participation in the event of the Estonian Apostolic Church, a church set up by the Constantinople Patriarchate in 1996 in Estonia, which the Moscow Church considers part of its territory.

The Ravenna meeting resulted in a final document that did not bear the signature of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Metropolitan John of Pergamon [of the Constantinople Patriarchate] as co-president of the joint commission for Orthodox-Catholic dialogue is responsible for derailing the dialogue," Hilarion said.

"His comments and the final text of the document work on which has finished in Ravenna without the participation of the Moscow Patriarchate may produce the impression that the Constantinople Patriarchate deliberately pushed the Moscow Patriarchate to withdraw from the dialogue so that decisions should be passed that would have been impossible with the participation of the Moscow Patriarchate," the bishop said.

In a statement after the signature of the final document, Hilarion said the fact that the dialogue excluded "the largest Orthodox Church, one whose number of members exceeds the total number of members of all other Orthodox Churches put together, calls into question the legitimacy of the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue."

Metropolitan John responded by accusing the Moscow Church of seeking to demonstrate its influence and of resorting to authoritarian methods to do so.

"Constantinople," said Hilarion, "wants to force on us a model of church organization that has never existed in Orthodox tradition and that is closer to the centralized model existing in the Roman-Catholic Church. In that model, the patriarch of Constantinople would have the role of the 'eastern pope.'"

The next round of talks, to start in 2009, would show whether other Orthodox churches would accept the alleged model, Hilarion said.

"However, it is already clear that the absence of the Moscow Patriarchate will make the work to develop such a model much easier," he said.

[Kolokotronis]

I guess I'd have to say that the Moscow Patriarchate was pretty stupid to leave meeting if +Hilarion is right as to what Constantinople is up to. Interesting that, for the second time during these talks, Moscow has a hissy fit and not one other Orthodox Church sides with them!

Black Bart of Constantinople is no prize, but the KGB's boy up in Moscow is going to have to learn that its the canons, not numbers, that count in The Church.

[bobjam]

Their “hissy fit” is not about doctrine, but rather about territory, power, and ultimately money. How sad.

[kawaii]

Black Bart of Constantinople is no prize, but the KGB's boy up in Moscow is going to have to learn that its the canons, not numbers, that count in The Church.

I don't think aledging that other church's patriarchs are secret agents for anachronous institutions is called for, I think it's more useful to look at this from a canonical stance.

[kawaii]

Their “hissy fit” is not about doctrine, but rather about territory, power, and ultimately money. How sad.

Considering this is an ecumenical gathering it's as much about the papacy. The Orthodox turning a blind eye to the EP blatentently interfereing in the matters of local churches should not that any sort of ecumenical agreement under such circumstances would invite the same treatment from the Bishop of Rome.

That said it does seem that some compromise was offered and rather hastily refused.

[Kolokotronis]

K, you’ve got to understand something. Hierarchs, Russian, Greek, Arab, Finn or otherwise, are NOT your friends. There are a multitude of reasons why we say that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. +Alexei is not a good guy. One hint of that is that none of the other non-Russian hierarchs will support him. That’s because he is playing the same game Russian hierarchs have been playing for over 500 years. That’s all fine and good, but in this specific instance he’s simply making a fool of himself and dissipating what little influence he does have.

[Kolokotronis]

“I think it’s more useful to look at this from a canonical stance.”

If you mean the Estonian thing, well that’s already been done and Moscow came up short. If you mean the dialog, well Moscow is free to walk, or not agree with any joint statement and it seems that’s just what they have done. That’s Moscow’s prerogative, K, just as it is the prerogative of the rest of canonical Orthodoxy to do otherwise. The canons will determine what we do with any Ecumenical Council called to discuss reunion with the Latin Church but we are a long way away from that right now, K.

[kawaii]

There are a multitude of reasons why we say that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. +Alexei is not a good guy.

He has managed to unite the Russian church, and Vladika Laurus seems to think he's worth throwing in with.

That’s all fine and good, but in this specific instance he’s simply making a fool of himself and dissipating what little influence he does have.

Folks may not be backing Moscow's behavior, which is apparently juvenille, but I doubt they agree completely with what Constatinople is doing either. I'm sure no one want's a precedent for schismatics on their own territory to be able to appeal to Constatinople and get canonical status. Further if this happens with Ukraine, which I don't know that it's likely to, I suspect you'll see a bigger outcry.

[FormerLib]

The same sorts of things happened between the Greeks and the Bulgarians when the Serbian Orthodox Church was first recognized.

[Kolokotronis]

“The same sorts of things happened between the Greeks and the Bulgarians when the Serbian Orthodox Church was first recognized.”

Yup! Autocephally, by tradition, is seized, not bestowed gracefully, though that has happened.

[kawaii]

I’d only be half suprised if Constatinople gave ROCOR-V legitmacy at this point...

[kawaii]

Yup! Autocephally, by tradition, is seized, not bestowed gracefully, though that has happened.

Ceased by the government for nationalistic reasons. Seems to me these things have fizzled out as often as they've stuck around.

[bobjam]

It seemed to me that the dispute arose over who is in charge of and therefore financially benefitting from the Orthodox faithful in Estonia. This has been an ongoing problem in several nations recently liberated from the Soviet Union. Alex2 is trying to maintain what he considers the historic See of Moscow (aka the old Russian Empire) while Bart2 is looking for places that can give him financial support. I know B16 is interested in working things out with the East, but he would probably not like to be seen as picking a side in this mess.

[Kolokotronis]

“I know B16 is interested in working things out with the East, but he would probably not like to be seen as picking a side in this mess.”

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...and +BXVI is no fool.

[ArrogantBustard]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Absolutely ... as disorganized as this business may seem to Latin eyes, it's progress. And it will get sorted out. No hurry, no worries.

[kawaii]

It seemed to me that the dispute arose over who is in charge of and therefore financially benefitting from the Orthodox faithful in Estonia. This has been an ongoing problem in several nations recently liberated from the Soviet Union. Alex2 is trying to maintain what he considers the historic See of Moscow (aka the old Russian Empire) while Bart2 is looking for places that can give him financial support. I know B16 is interested in working things out with the East, but he would probably not like to be seen as picking a side in this mess.

The Moscow Patriarchate are in no major need of Estonian donations, as it is they control more than half the churches in Estonia anyway; many ethnic Estonians go to MP churches, there are simply a nationalist few who prefer their own. It was the Estonian government which declared the non-MP church valid, and much latter the Ecumenical Patriarch endorsed it.

[Kolokotronis]

“Ceased by the government for nationalistic reasons. Seems to me these things have fizzled out as often as they’ve stuck around.”

In virtually every instance nationalism has been behind a grab for autocephally. Similarly these seizures of autocephally, starting with Russia’s have lead to long periods of schism with the original Patriarchates. But in the end, they are always recognized. Off hand I can't think of any autocephally which fizzled out, except perhaps the OCA and even they are still around.

This nationalism in religion is I suspect inevitable in countries where a)government control of virtually everything is important and/or b) the Patriarchal Church which has or claims jurisdiction over the local church is located in or under the control of a government inimical to the local government.

[Kolokotronis]

“And it will get sorted out. No hurry, no worries.”

Precisely! :)

[kawaii]

In virtually every instance nationalism has been behind a grab for autocephally. Similarly these seizures of autocephally, starting with Russia’s have lead to long periods of schism with the original Patriarchates. But in the end, they are always recognized. Off hand I can't think of any autocephally which fizzled out, except perhaps the OCA and even they are still around.

The Bulgarian nationalist church recognized by the Sultan comes to mind.

[kawaii]

This nationalism in religion is I suspect inevitable in countries where a)government control of virtually everything is important and/or b) the Patriarchal Church which has or claims jurisdiction over the local church is located in or under the control of a government inimical to the local government.

I don't see how it's inevitable MOST Estonians still go to patriarchal churches including many non Russians, only a handful of nationalists (who support God knows what else) go to these separatist nationalist parishes. This is not really comperable to the schism-autocephally-canonical church issue of old. This is secular governments ordering canonical churches out for nationalist reasons and then being backed in this action by Canonical churches. Further there's certainly been churches recognized by the EP which subsequently vanished (though that problem may also be pecular to the post-communist-question).