Russian Church: Constantinople ruins talks with Catholics

interfax ^ | 23 October 2007 | interfax

[kawaii]

23 October 2007 Russian Church: Constantinople ruins talks with Catholics

Moscow, October 22, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church representative to European institutions accused the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople on Monday of seeking to establish itself as the top authority in the world's Orthodox communion and of ruining Orthodox-Roman Catholic dialogue.

The representative, Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria, was referring to the 10th meeting of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

The delegation of the Moscow Patriarchate withdrew from the meeting, held in Ravenna, Italy, in protest against the participation in the event of the Estonian Apostolic Church, a church set up by the Constantinople Patriarchate in 1996 in Estonia, which the Moscow Church considers part of its territory.

The Ravenna meeting resulted in a final document that did not bear the signature of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Metropolitan John of Pergamon [of the Constantinople Patriarchate] as co-president of the joint commission for Orthodox-Catholic dialogue is responsible for derailing the dialogue," Hilarion said.

"His comments and the final text of the document work on which has finished in Ravenna without the participation of the Moscow Patriarchate may produce the impression that the Constantinople Patriarchate deliberately pushed the Moscow Patriarchate to withdraw from the dialogue so that decisions should be passed that would have been impossible with the participation of the Moscow Patriarchate," the bishop said.

In a statement after the signature of the final document, Hilarion said the fact that the dialogue excluded "the largest Orthodox Church, one whose number of members exceeds the total number of members of all other Orthodox Churches put together, calls into question the legitimacy of the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue."

Metropolitan John responded by accusing the Moscow Church of seeking to demonstrate its influence and of resorting to authoritarian methods to do so.

"Constantinople," said Hilarion, "wants to force on us a model of church organization that has never existed in Orthodox tradition and that is closer to the centralized model existing in the Roman-Catholic Church. In that model, the patriarch of Constantinople would have the role of the 'eastern pope.'"

The next round of talks, to start in 2009, would show whether other Orthodox churches would accept the alleged model, Hilarion said.

"However, it is already clear that the absence of the Moscow Patriarchate will make the work to develop such a model much easier," he said.

[FormerLib]

And solving a problem in under two centuries means the Orthodox have “fast tracked” it.

[dangus]

Come on, though... It is sad that Moscow is trying to make this derail the talks. He’s taking his ball and heading home because he can’t control everyone else.

Only 16% of Estonians believe in God. The vast majority of believers are Lutheran. There’s only about 1-1/3 million, so the Orthodox population of believers must only be a few tens of thousands, tops. Constantinople is acting ridiculous, also, in instigating Moscow, but come on: Moscow shouldust shrug, declare “Whatever!” and ignore Estonia.

[Petrosius]

Without getting into the merits of the canonical dispute between Constantinople and Moscow, given Rome’s jurisdictional claims and what Moscow thinks of them, it seems strange that Moscow would be willing to sit down with Rome and not with Constantinople.

[dangus]

Unless Moscow had no intent of participating in the first place. If they don’t show up, everyone carries on without them.

[bobjam]

Moscow doesn’t need the money from Estonia, but the EP does. He needs every penny he can get. Nobody can argue the fact that Russia is by far the biggest and wealthiest branch of the East. And on the political side, Russia is the biggest player in Eastern Europe. The logic used 1500 years ago to make the Bishop of Constantinople the top cleric in the east would today make the Bishop of Moscow the top cleric in the east.

[kawaii]

Come on, though... It is sad that Moscow is trying to make this derail the talks. He’s taking his ball and heading home because he can’t control everyone else. Only 16% of Estonians believe in God. The vast majority of believers are Lutheran. There’s only about 1-1/3 million, so the Orthodox population of believers must only be a few tens of thousands, tops. Constantinople is acting ridiculous, also, in instigating Moscow, but come on: Moscow shouldust shrug, declare “Whatever!” and ignore Estonia.

Sure ignore canon because it'd be impolite to insist on following it; the Orthodox have a practice of such decenting opinions it's not the papal monarchy.

[kawaii]

Moscow doesn’t need the money from Estonia, but the EP does. He needs every penny he can get. Nobody can argue the fact that Russia is by far the biggest and wealthiest branch of the East. And on the political side, Russia is the biggest player in Eastern Europe. The logic used 1500 years ago to make the Bishop of Constantinople the top cleric in the east would today make the Bishop of Moscow the top cleric in the east.

Moscow is also the most populous branch and save 70 years of supression (and even then it was active) Moscow has defended Orthodox interest since Constatinople fell... I'd love to see Istanbul and a strong active EP return but the EP is losing numbers to Muslims while muslims convert by the thousands in Russia to Orthodoxy.

[kawaii]

Unless Moscow had no intent of participating in the first place. If they don’t show up, everyone carries on without them.

I'm curious if the SSPX showed up at this meeting and the Orthodox treated them as canonical Catholics if you'd agree to the Pope sitting by and tolerating that.

[kawaii]

Without getting into the merits of the canonical dispute between Constantinople and Moscow, given Rome’s jurisdictional claims and what Moscow thinks of them, it seems strange that Moscow would be willing to sit down with Rome and not with Constantinople.

The issue was not with constatinople being present it was with 'patriarchs' of a schismatic church which constatinople recognizes and Moscow does not.

Frankly btw what possible contribution could a church that accounts for a minority of a minority church in Estonia contribute ANYWAY?

[kawaii]

Only 16% of Estonians believe in God. The vast majority of believers are Lutheran. There’s only about 1-1/3 million, so the Orthodox population of believers must only be a few tens of thousands, tops.

The Orthodox and Luthern Churches are about tied at 15% of the population. The Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church (Recognized by Constatinople) has 20,000 adherents, the MP Estonian Orthodox Church has 250,000. The Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church has 200,000 members.

[bobjam]

True, but all the Eastern Patriarchs know that the only gorilla in Continental European Christianity with a bigger hammer than Moscow is Rome. They may not like it, but it is a fact. In the growing tug of war between Moscow and the EP, the balace would be tipped if one side could coax the Pope into their corner. B16, to his credit, is staying out of the fray. It will take both Moscow and the EP to come to a settlement with Rome, and the German Shepherd is not going to risk alienating one of them.

[kawaii]

True, but all the Eastern Patriarchs know that the only gorilla in Continental European Christianity with a bigger hammer than Moscow is Rome. They may not like it, but it is a fact. In the growing tug of war between Moscow and the EP, the balace would be tipped if one side could coax the Pope into their corner. B16, to his credit, is staying out of the fray. It will take both Moscow and the EP to come to a settlement with Rome, and the German Shepherd is not going to risk alienating one of them

Much as Alexy II flirts with Rome I would see the EP signing up prematurly not Moscow... as far as Europe I suspect they'll work together long before union, and establish real results. Keep in ming Bartholomew has already met with the Pope. Alexy II refuses to until there is something big to announce though I doubt he'll wait till union to meet the Pope. Benedict is playing both sides against eachother in a lot of ways probably out of knowing that if one were to commit without the other it has zero chance of success. It was Russia that first rebelled against the premature Council of Florence.