Italy's Padre Pio 'faked his stigmata with acid'

Telegraph ^ | October 24, 2007 | Malcolm Moore

[tiki]

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay Rheims)

[Mad Dawg]

Αη, ςελλ, θη, ςαιτ α μινθτε ηερε.

Darn it.

Ah well, wait a minute here, is what I meant to say.

My immediate right here family, consisting of my wife and me, and Polly the cat and Clint, the new orphan kitty who has enough of an appetite that I think he will live, WE have favorite saints. Nancy and I are just cranking up to do a novena to Terese, in fact a couple of novenas.

But I didn't think of them kind of being handed down as a family tradition. And Nancy has her saintly homies and I have mine. It's a very open marriage, when it comes to Saints, that is.

AS far as religious similarities are concerned, I have this comment. It's like Ptolemy, Tycho Brahe, and Kepler. Many phenomena are the same, and around the world people understand in the most unexpected places that Love makes the world go round. It blows my mind that around the time of the Incarnation, the First great Buddhist conference took place. The vital part of Buddhism that came from that was the part which de-emphasizes enlightenment and emphasizes compassion and the Bodhisattva ideal of suffering for others. The Vajrayana, the Mahayana in general, and all the Chan/Zen schools came from the group that emphasizes compassion as supreme over enlightenment.

This is an example of how the universality of God and His self-disclosure in nature (including human nature) inevitably leads to sometimes quite remarkable similarities.

So Ptolemy and Tycho Brahe are very very similar in their "systems". But (Copernicus and) Brahe put the Sun at the center, and thus enable Kepler who lays the groundwork for Newton and all that.So yeah, the similarities are startling, but sooner or later it comes down to what's at the center. If it's not Christ and Him Crucified, the best we can hope for is unsatisfactory epicycle piled on unsatisfactory epicycle,
sez me. Death by epicycle.

[Kolokotronis]

“You’d think some of our other “brethern” here invented the language...”

Well, I must say it does irritate me that some seem to believe they know Greek better than the Greeks or the Greek Church. Greeks have been “doing” the Greek NT for a very long time, rather longer even than all the Christian “ecclesial communities” have been around, if you can imagine such a thing! :)

[pillut48]

Never heard of (Douay Rheims), that is the Catholic Bible?

[Mad Dawg]

FS quoth:
“I do love ouzo though!”

homo ouzoios?

Just sayin' ....

[pillut48]

IIRC, Thomas (the Doubting one) supposedly went to India and was a missionary there after Jesus ascended—but Hinduism is about 5000 years old, from what I understand?

[Frank Sheed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary

[Kolokotronis]

"Αη, ςελλ, θη, ςαιτ α μινθτε ηερε."

You've got to remember to change the font, MD! :)

[pillut48]

Ack. Need to post to get past the number of the Beast! :-O

[Mad Dawg]

Never heard of (Douay Rheims), that is the Catholic Bible?

One of 'em.

C'mon Kolo. Parse out the Angelic Salutation for us, please.

[Frank Sheed]

We all know the Bible (sans Apocrypha) fell from heaven directly into Guttenburg’s lap... It even had all the “thees,” thous” and “ye’s” in it already!

F

[Kolokotronis]

“but Hinduism is about 5000 years old, from what I understand?”

That’s right. Maybe God showed people how to commemorate the dead, or for how long, millenia before the Incarnation.

[Frank Sheed]

The prayer incorporates two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women" (Luke 1:28) and "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42)

In mid-thirteenth-century Western Europe the prayer consisted only of these words with the single addition of the name "Mary" after the word "Hail", as is evident from the commentary of Saint Thomas Aquinas on the prayer.[1]

The first of the two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel is the greeting of the Angel Gabriel to Mary. The word κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene), here translated as "full of grace" admits of various translations. Grammatically, the word is the feminine Present Perfect Passive Voice Participle of the verb "χαριτο-ω (charitoō)", which means "to show grace" and, in the passive voice, "to have grace shown one, to be highly favoured". The form of the verb is intensive, hence the translations "highly favoured" and "full of grace".[2]

The opening word of greeting, χαῖρε (chaire), here translated "Hail", literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be happy". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in modern Greek. Accordingly, both "Hail" and "Rejoice" are possible English translations of the word.

Since the words χαῖρε and κεχαριτωμένη are etymologically connected (a favour is meant to make someone happy), some see in the juxtaposition of the two words a literary element of wordplay.

The text also appears in the account of the annunciation contained in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Matthew, at chapter 9.

[Kolokotronis]

"C'mon Kolo. Parse out the Angelic Salutation for us, please."

Piece of baklava!

"καὶ εἰσελθὼν ὁ ἄγγελος πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπε· Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη· ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ· εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν."

[tiki]

It was the first English translation of the Catholic Bible in the 1600s, I think. It was translated from the Latin Vulgate.

Different translations can cause different interpretations of verses in the Bible. Language usage changes over time and as each translation changes to keep up with the language and taking into account the translators beliefs and prejudices they can actually change the original meaning if one is a not a Biblical scholar. (And I certainly am not one)

I started out from 6-12 with KJV Bible and at 12 I got an RSV. Now I have a NAB and a Douay Rheims but still prefer the RSV for my regular reading and for the great concordance.

[Mad Dawg]

Simply excellent, both of you!

Thanks, Kolo, for the geek, uh, Greek, and thanks FS, for the grammatical essay on kecharitomene and the notes on Chaire.

FS, isn't it the "perfect" form which makes it intensive in meaning. I mean the Ke, to me, I would have guessed, it was just a marker of the perfect tense - "reduplicative perfect" or somesuch. So the gracing has been done done. Ain't no more gracing to do.

I have to get up at 0500.

Pillut, aka CJ: Clearly we RCs and Orthodox have a different approach to Scripture from that of the sola scriptura gang. But please don't ever think we don't love it. I told my priest that reading the "daily office", which is mostly psalms, is like taking a nice warm bath. It is so nice to think that such a pleasure, almost a self-indulgence, is, for lay Dominicans also a duty. As though it were a duty to drink good Scotch!

Oh darn Honey, I guess I have to go pray my prayers now.

It's like a warm bath and then being rubbed down with the finest olive oil scented with roses. God is so full of Love!

[Mad Dawg]

I think currently, the RSV is where it’s at. The NAB and some of the stuff in the Liturgy of the hours, I refer to it as the Yoda translation.

[Kolokotronis]

“. I mean the Ke, to me, I would have guessed, it was just a marker of the perfect tense - “reduplicative perfect” or somesuch.”

Blah, Blah, Blah! Here’s what it means in real life:

“An archangel was sent from Heaven to say to the Theotokos: Rejoice! And beholding Thee, O Lord, taking bodily form, he was amazed and with his bodiless voice he stood crying to Her such things as these:

Rejoice, Thou through whom joy will shine forth:

Rejoice, Thou through whom the curse will cease!

Rejoice, recall of fallen Adam:

Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve!

Rejoice, height inaccessible to human thoughts:

Rejoice, depth undiscernible even for the eyes of angels!

Rejoice, for Thou art the throne of the King:

Rejoice, for Thou bearest Him Who beareth all!

Rejoice, star that causest the Sun to appear:

Rejoice, womb of the Divine Incarnation!

Rejoice, Thou through whom creation is renewed:

Rejoice, Thou through whom we worship the Creator!

Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!”

Here’s a link:

http://www.goarch.org/en/multimedia/audio.asp?videoTitle=The%20Akathist%20Hymn&location=/en/services/akathist/eikona/akathist_MSTR.mov

[tiki]

I certainly find it the most to readable but then I’ve been reading it for many decades, the poor thing is held together with lots of tape.

[pillut48]

“Yoda translation”, LOL! :-)

Thanks to everyone for all the help with all of this, of course, it could take a lifetime to understand all of it! :-)

I think I have a better understanding now of why someone like Padre Pio (she said, dragging the subject back on topic ;-) is venerated by those in the RC religion.