Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54
If I say, "the times from Adam to Noah", am I speaking of one continuum, one period of time, or multiple, distinct periods of time? Can you tell?
The note is speaking of past, present and future saints, not just present ones, as your post seem to indicate.
Yes, but "past, present and future saints" in a single age or in multiple distinct ages? What set of presuppositions forces you to one view or the other?
That is such a subjective position.
If I say, "the times from Adam to Noah", am I speaking of one continuum, one period of time, or multiple, distinct periods of time? Can you tell?
If you were speaking of one single continuum, wouldn't you use the word 'time' and not 'times'?
[ The note is speaking of past, present and future saints, not just present ones, as your post seem to indicate. ]
Yes, but "past, present and future saints" in a single age or in multiple distinct ages? What set of presuppositions forces you to one view or the other?
Robertson says that the 'fullness of times' here refers to 'epochs'
Unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times (ei� oikonomian tou plhrwmato� twn kairwn). See Colossians 1:25 for oikonomian. In Galatians 4:4 "the fulness of the time" (to plhrwma tou cronou) the time before Christ is treated as a unit, here as a series of epochs (kairwn).
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/RobertsonsWordPictures/rwp.cgi?book=eph&chapter=001&verse=010&next=011&prev=009
No, they become Christians and are no longer Jews in this Dispensation.
Just like a Gentile ceases to be a Gentile after he receives Christ.
Now, Zech 13:8 is speaking of 1/3 of the Jews calling on Christ, which has never happened-but will.
Thanks.
That was my memory but didn’t have the texts in view when I said it was the case.
HOWEVER, IT WILL BE THE CASE . . . THEY SHALL POSSESS EVERY LAST GRAIN OF SAND PROMISED.
GOD
IS
NOT
SLACK
CONCERNING !HIS! PROMISES!
PRAISE HIS NAME.
Uncle Chip,
I’m beginning to wonder what the point of demonstrating anything from the Bible is.
Their rubber Bibles, rubber dictionaries, rubber history books, rubber logic books render any Scripture they feel like—void or nonexistent.
Amazing.
Thankfully, God will have the last laugh.
And the abomination of desolation being put into the Temple,(Mat.24:15) when did that happen in the siege of 70AD, especially since the Zelots controlled the city-or was that also 'hyperbolic' language as well?
That is such a subjective position.
= = =
Given the solidness and even clarity though at times mysterious of Scripture,
a subjective position is all that the Replacementarian perspective CAN be left with.
Congrats
I love to see the truth of Scripture and of the key words posted on these threads.
Gets some clothing in a wad but anyway it’s well worth it.
Yes, because I read the passages that they cited.
You see the limits of Solomons kingdom in 1Ki.4:21 (cf 2Chron.9:26) where it states that Solomon ruled a kingdom which went to the border of Egypt not into it (the Nile).
Gen.15:8 is speaking of going from the river of Egypt (the Nile) to the Euphrates.
It was a good exercise looking up and comparing different verses.
I now have a much clearer understanding of that issue, so I thank Topcat 54 for raising the questions.
The "abomination of desolation" is interpreted for us in places like Luke 21:
20 " Therefore when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilledNow compare it to Matthew 24:
15 " Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.The things which follows the phrase "Therefore when you see" are related. Luke explains to his primarily gentile readers the meaning of the phrase used in Matthew.
The "abomination of desolation" involved the destruction of the temple of God. The desecration, the "abomination", was about as complete as it could get. However, it is true that the Roman defiled the temple by setting up ensigns in the temple before they burned it to the ground.
In AD 325, the church historian Eusebius documents it this way:
"But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)
And Dispensationists would not disagree that there is only 'one' time, one Plan of God, but only that within that period of time, God works different ways.
And that view is what the note would seem to support.
The Nile was the border of Egypt in those days. It served as the boundary and guard for Egypt's eastern border.
The abomination of desolation is described in Daniel, which Christ refers to, (9:27,12:11) and has to happen before the destruction of the city since when the Jews saw it occurring they were to flee.
And idol is set up in the Temple that desecrates it (Dan.12:11) and causes all sacrifices to cease.
It had nothing to do with the surrounding of the city, as described in Luke, which do refer to the events of 70AD
Different, how? Do you mean people are saved differently? What is the real significance of this alleged "difference" that we would need to mark it off as different times? Unless you can say categorically what is different there is no way you can say how many of these things there really are. You need to avoid being arbitrary. That is the real objection to the dispensational system.
I’ve already said there are but two "dispensations" (as it is historically used) during this present covenant of grace, what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament.
I believe you said you’ve never read anything by Scofield before. Yet you seem to accept that “Scofield clearly believed that salvation has always been by grace through faith.”
BTW, faith in what? If it’s faith in Christ, then we have no disagreement.
I suggest you re-read the note from Scofield himself and then google “dispensationalism” and “historic premillennialism” and see for yourself the very significant differences between them. You can find them on Web sites such as Theopedia.
While you’re looking them up, see for yourself when (and by whom) dispensationalism began.
Now, since I clearly cite Ryrie, then my earlier statment that I'm not a Scofield scholar is put in proper context.
Ryrie is (was?) far more a scholar than this entire thread put together.
I'd say that I'm fairly comfortable with dispensationalism as an idea.
Even you admit to UPTs, which are just another name for dispensations.
Now, back to my next question which I posed in the last post. Was there anything AT ALL different in the relationship between God & mankind in the Garden UPT than now entails?
The Nile was the border of Egypt in those days. It served as the boundary and guard for Egypt's eastern border.
15:18-21 describes what is referred to in Jewish tradition as Gevulot Ha-aretz ("Borders of the Land") regarded as the full extent of the land promised to Abraham. Numbers 34:1-15 describes the land allocated to the Israelite tribes after the Exodus. The tribes of Reuben, Gad and half of Manasseh received land east of the Jordan as explained in Numbers 34:14-15. Numbers 34:1-13 provides a detailed description of the borders of the land allocated to the remaining tribes. The region is called "the Land of Canaan" (Eretz Kna'an) in Numbers 34:2 and the borders are known in Jewish tradition as the "borders for those coming out of Egypt". The English expression "Promised Land" can denote either the land promised to Abraham in Genesis or the land of Canaan, although the latter meaning is more common.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel#The_Promised_Land
I haven't seen any map of Solomon's kingdom that him controlling the terrority to the Nile.
“Ryrie is (was?) far more a scholar than this entire thread put together.”
It depends what you mean by “scholar.”
Have you noticed you haven’t answered my questions?
For example, do you believe there are two peoples of God and two (or more) plans for salvation?
Do you believe the OT saints were saved by faith in Christ?
Those are just two questions for now, though I have so many more. Thanks in advance for answering.
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