Posted on 11/02/2007 10:54:04 AM PDT by fgoodwin
Please ping the Traditional Anglican List.
Thanx
I’m not an Episcopalian, but a Catholic and I cannot help feel sadness for what is going on in your church the last few years. It seems it has lost it’s way. That is not meant in an accusatory or mean way but hope your church finds it’s way out of the wilderness.
LOL!
The same media that scoffs at people who believe that the Torah was given to Moses around 1200 BC instead of much later, automatically accept that the Rig Veda is this old.
Plenty of internal clues point to the Rig Vedas and the Avesta of the Zoroastrians as having similar sources and no one claims an earlier date for the Avesta than 1000 BC.
The same people who were fond of pointing out that the oldest known Hebrew manuscript of the Scriptures was only written in 1000 AD (this was before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls) don't mention that the oldest known manuscript of the Rig-Veda dates to the same timeframe.
Recitations from ancient Sanskrit scriptures will reverberate in a Christian church in Nevada on the occasion of coming Thanksgiving eve service.
Without looking ..... Episcopal Church USA
Trinity Episcopal Church
ping!
Actually Rig Veda is far older then 1500BCE.
Actually, it isn't.
“Actually, it isn’t.”
Only according to Christian and Secularist/Marxist version of world history.
No, it isn't that old because there are no facts to substantiate its age.
Namecalling can't disguise the weakness of your claim.
“No, it isn’t that old because there are no facts to substantiate its age.”
Actually there are plenty. It all depends on which one you pick and choose as “evidence”.
Calling Christians as “Christians” is namecalling? You have had some serious PC sensitivity education it seems.
LOL! Then why haven't you posted anything except bare assertions, unbacked by facts?
Calling Christians as “Christians” is namecalling?
In your mouth, the word "Christian" is an epithet.
BTW Hebrew Scriptures were written around 1000BC during the time of King David and were officially defined and closed in 91 AD.
“Then why haven’t you posted anything except bare assertions, unbacked by facts?”
Sorry I dont do other people’s homework.
“In your mouth, the word “Christian” is an epithet.”
Oh then what word should I use so as not to offend you?
BTW I haven see you post anything beyond .....”bare assertions, unbacked by facts” either.
Actually Rig Veda is far older then 1500BCE.
Only according to a Hindu version of world history.
Actually, I don't have a problem with dating the 'Rig Veda' to ~2000 BCE if you want, and Moses' transcriptions to ~1500 BC.
From the Bible we have: God's Creation, the Flood (5000 BC to 2400 BC, depending on one's interpretation of the meaning of 'begat'), Tower of Babel (3000 BC to 2100 BC, again depending on one's interpretation), dispersion of the peoples (cousins -- which we call 'races'), and then God giving the Law to Moses around 1500 BC (where Moses then transcribed the first 5 books of the Bible).
So sure, there could have been many things written before 1500 BC (e.g., the Babylonian tale of Creation: Enuma Elish; etc), but Scripture IS Scripture.
Only HIS Word IS God breathed, and standeth forever, and is alone worthy to be a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our paths ("All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...").
There. . .fixed it.
Classic case of circular arguments:
“What’s the proof that the Scriptures were written in 1500 BC?”
“The Scriptures mention the dates to be around 1500 BC.”
“Whats the evidence that the Scriptures are God’s word?”
“The Scriptures say that IT IS the God’s word.”
Max Muller was a Christian who believed the world was created at 9 am 23 october 4004BC and he adjusted other chronological events accordingly to comply with his Christian world view.
BTW read on books written by David Frawley and Koenraad Elst on Veda. Note: Neither of them are Hindus.
The latest from The Episcopal Cult.
If the world was created by God in and around 5000BC (according to Bible) then I better start believing in Islamic science as well.
Actually, I have yet to run across any islamic 'Young Earthers' (not that 6,000 to 15,000 years old is 'young'). As near as I can tell, they buy into theistic evolution. That is, billions and billions of years of macro evolution guided by the hand of God. So, I suspect that your Creation model is more consistent with 'islamic science' than the Bible.
Classic case of circular arguments:
“What’s the proof that the Scriptures were written in 1500 BC?”
“The Scriptures mention the dates to be around 1500 BC.”
“Whats the evidence that the Scriptures are God’s word?”
“The Scriptures say that IT IS the God’s word.”
On a superficial level, what you say is true -- but you miss a few steps. Any attempt at arriving at the truth requires one to start out with 'First Principles'. Whether solving a difficult technical problem, or attempting to derive some philosophical position -- one needs to start out with a bedrock fact, and build upon that.
My first principle: God IS. Of course if I'm an atheist I'm going to start out with a different first principle -- but I'd be wrong.
Secondly: God created us.
Thirdly: God has not left us alone. He communicates with us.
Now on this third point, people can branch into several 'opinions', or ideas. God reveals Himself in nature, or in this, or that, manner. I believe this communication to in the form of HIS written Word - the Bible (and also HIS Spirit, and HIS only Begotten Son).
Now you say that I said:
“Whats the evidence that the Scriptures are God’s word?”
“The Scriptures say that IT IS the God’s word.”
Although it is true that the Bible testifies to its own inerrancy, it can be believed for many other reasons.
It uniquely testifies that God was before the Creation.
It uniquely defines man's condition: helpless sinners in desperate need of a Saviour if we are to appear before a spotless God who hates sin.
It uniquely certifies its accuracy with many prophecies and historical events that have been proven to be true (e.g., Isaiah's 'calling Cyrus by name'; 'prophesying Babylon's fall' 's 70 years of Judah's exile; Daniel's prophecy of the 'flying Grecian goat' -- Alexander; Daniel's 7 weeks (which aligned to the exact day of Jesus' crucifixion); and numerous other prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus).
Basically yes, I believe the Bible because it says its the Word of God -- but like anything you test it for Truth. And it stands up to the test.
As a counter example I'd offer up the koran. It admits that statements in it (or at least from the mouth of Mohammed) were lies from satan.
And, as the real Bible says - "Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him"... I.e., such a prophet is to be ignored.br> And since the koran are Mohammed's words - they are to be ignored. Likewise the koran contains observations that are demonstrably untrue (e.g., 'the sun is set in a pool of murky water' ... literally); as well as it contains theological beliefs that can just be described as noxious and contrary to anything that would come from a Holy God.
Granted, as a sinner whose heart is desperately wicked I can not speak for a Holy God - but still: winning a fast pass to heaven by blowing up innocent women and children? Having said heaven be nothing more than a teenage boy's sexual fantasy? After a brief skim, a book such as the koran can be refuted. On the other hand -- read the Bible. Kick its tires. I'm not saying that it will win you over - Only God can open someone's eyes - but if you approach it with an open mind, and with desire to find God -- HE will find you (Seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened onto you...).
BTW the 1500BC date for Veda is given by a Christian preacher to India by the name Max Muller. (Thats like a Hindu priest dating the Bible).
What date do you put on the Vedas?
Max Muller was a Christian who believed the world was created at 9 am 23 october 4004BC and he adjusted other chronological events accordingly to comply with his Christian world view.
Sounds like the Bishop Ussher chronology - which is frankly a pretty fair one (note: Isaac Newton and Johan Kepler derived similar dates: ~ 4000 BC). Like I alluded to earlier, if one interprets the 'begats' to be ages rather than literal father-son relationships, the Creation can be stretched back to ~11000 BC. But I buy into the 4000ish BC model.
Also you allude to 'his Christian world view' as it is a bad thing. We all have our world views. I've described mine. It should be noted though, that this 'Christian world view' is not a regional world view. I doubt Max Muller was Hebrew or Greek -- he was just won over by the Words of Christ -- as all of the rest of us have been. And thus, he (as well as I) see the world through this prism.
BTW read on books written by David Frawley and Koenraad Elst on Veda. Note: Neither of them are Hindus.
Thanks for the recommended reading list - I appreciate it. I also wouldn't mind if they were written by Hindus (albeit being written in English is a must).
Whomever knows the material best, and has the most accurate translation.
Unlike the koran (which is a book from satan), I expect to find some nuggets of truth. I believe in the not so distant past that our forefathers came off of the Ark, and went their separate ways. I enjoy looking for the remnant of God's original message. E.g., the Hindu 'Trinity': Brahma (Creator God), Vishnu ('Preserver' - whose vehicle was swift flying bird), and Shiva ('Redeemer' who had victory of the demonic forces, etc) shares a marked similarity to the Trinity of the Bible. Adam and Eve were able to see clearly before the Fall, and what they knew about God was passed on to their children. Obviously a lot of this got garbled over time - but I like to look for those messages that compare well with the Bible.
Well, I got too long winded on this one. Thanks again for your reading suggestions.
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