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To: Forest Keeper
present indicative tense

So, "have been saved" is patently incorrect. "You are saved" as in "you are taught" or "you are fed".

The "not of yourselves" clearly refers to where the grace and faith came from. It has zero to do with the works.

Right; so if one works for boast and under his own power, that is not salvific. We agree here. Grace is source of both saving faith and saving work of love.

During perseverance, of course faith and works go hand in hand. Nobody disputes that

Ah, good, So, this is all Ephesians 2-3 is saying. No "work is fruit" theory there.

75 posted on 11/13/2007 4:16:09 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea-Luke17.php)
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To: annalex
So, "have been saved" is patently incorrect. "You are saved" as in "you are taught" or "you are fed".

I am very unlearned as to tenses, but what I found was the present indicative tense as compared to other languages. It said, in essence, that "You are saved" could mean either "You were saved" OR "You are being saved now", depending on the context. I just took the context of all of Paul's writings, which demonstrate to me that he believed he was already saved, i.e. that assurance is possible.

FK: "During perseverance, of course faith and works go hand in hand. Nobody disputes that."

Ah, good, So, this is all Ephesians 2-3 is saying. No "work is fruit" theory there.

Not really. In Eph. 2-3 perseverance works are covered, but so is the separate idea that faith, executed through saving grace, is what saves alone. Lifelong perseverance is what goes with lifelong works, not the ordained and graced "moment" of salvation. Both of the passages we quoted cover both of these ideas.

79 posted on 11/14/2007 3:53:03 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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