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Mormons, Mayans and Mystery
The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 17 Nov 2007 | Peggy Fletcher Stack

Posted on 11/17/2007 4:58:28 PM PST by BGHater

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To: BGHater
Allen knows it is not archaeology that persuades readers to believe in the scripture's authenticity - it is faith. "When all is said and done," he said, "it's a spiritual book."

That is the difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon...the Bible has been overwhelmingly substantiated by archaeology. And there is evidence for the Exodus, despite what this author states.

41 posted on 11/17/2007 7:02:45 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: swmobuffalo
Not exactly zero! :-)

NEWLY FOUND ALTARS FROM NAHOM

42 posted on 11/17/2007 7:03:00 PM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: TheDon

Your stretching gets more ridiculous by the post.


43 posted on 11/17/2007 7:06:47 PM PST by nesnah
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To: nesnah

Cha-ching!

And no response to your post? I thought I’d see lots of disclaimers posted with facts to back it up! :)


44 posted on 11/17/2007 7:08:38 PM PST by Pan_Yans Wife
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To: Pontiac
Having never met a Mayan I guess not. But I think it a very good assumption which I am willing to make.

Then, don't you believe the statement should have been labelled an assumption, at least, instead of a certainty?

I wasn't there...and nobody I know was there...so I don't have the foggiest idea what Quetzalcoatl really looked like -- nor how those who first saw him viewed themselves.

45 posted on 11/17/2007 7:09:21 PM PST by okie01
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To: LiteKeeper
I’m not in the LDS faith at all.

However, I tend to believe in the Ancient American foundation of pre Columbus trade between countries across the Atlantic and pacific oceans.

46 posted on 11/17/2007 7:09:49 PM PST by BGHater (Lead. The MSG for the 21st Century.)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

In order to post facts, well, you need facts. Fairy tales are not facts, but some people have a helluva time telling the difference between the two.


47 posted on 11/17/2007 7:12:02 PM PST by nesnah
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To: Pontiac

But Hebrews were (and are, for the most part) Caucasian. That is, they are of the “white” race, or Europids, which include much of the population of the Indian subcontinent, the Near East, North Africa, as well as Europe and places settled by Europeans.

By some counts, the Europids are the largest of the five major races, followed by the Mongolids, and the Negrids. Much smaller in population are the Australids na d the Khoisanids.

Jesus was a Jew, and a Near Easterner, and most likely looked like people from that part of the world (which gives quite a bit of latitude for appearance, as there is much variety there), but he was definitely of the white race, broadly defined, and therefore Caucasian.


48 posted on 11/17/2007 7:22:12 PM PST by docbnj
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To: nesnah
You are getting out of context. The subject was how great the Mormon people were that they stood by him. Other peoples had not sttod so firmly behind their leaders. He didn’t believe he was establishing the church independent of Jesus, but that he was doing it as Jesus’ emissary. He acknowledged that.

You stated that he was claiming to have done more than Jesus in general, which is ridiculous.

49 posted on 11/17/2007 7:37:36 PM PST by broncobilly
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To: okie01
I wasn't there...and nobody I know was there...so I don't have the foggiest idea what Quetzalcoatl really looked like –

No I never saw Jesus either and yet I can say that I am reasonably certain (given the Biblical record) that he was a Semitic Jew and that any reasonable person seeing a Mayan and a Semitic Jew side by side would call the Semitic Jew white in comparison.

The complexions of Semitic Jews and Mayans are too close in comparison for such a description to hold up to reasonable discussion.

Your grasping and semantic straws here.

Having seen pictures of temple carvings of what the Maya thought Quetzalcoatl looked like I would have to say the Maya did not think he look Jewish.

50 posted on 11/17/2007 7:37:56 PM PST by Pontiac (Your message here.)
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To: broncobilly

Wow, you are really deluded in your interpretation of some very obvious statements. I know it’s hard for you to let go, but you are following a lie.


51 posted on 11/17/2007 7:42:33 PM PST by nesnah
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To: TheDon
Interesting stuff. In my youth, I was befriended by an anthropologist named Ed Milligan who told me a number of interesting Indian stories including this one.

So far as I know, Milligan had no connection with the Mormon Church, but he was a maverick in his field because he believed more of the ancient American peoples came from the south, probably by sea, and moved northward rather than migrated over the Bearing Strait land bridge as is more popular in the field.

Most compelling about Ed's theory was not the ancient legends which collaborated it, but the observable fact that the level of ancient civilization decreased rather than increased when moving south to north. If the Bearing Straight theory was such an ironclad fact, then we ought to have ruins along the coast of say, modern day British Columbia which rival those of the Inca in Peru.

52 posted on 11/17/2007 7:50:32 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Are there any men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud)
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To: Vigilanteman
Most compelling about Ed's theory was not the ancient legends which collaborated it, but the observable fact that the level of ancient civilization decreased rather than increased when moving south to north. If the Bearing Straight theory was such an ironclad fact, then we ought to have ruins along the coast of say, modern day British Columbia which rival those of the Inca in Peru.

Sorry, that is a simplistic version of prehistory.

Civilizations arose around the world in areas with specific conditions. British Columbia does not have those conditions.

The conditions favoring civilizations are those which favored agriculture. In rich hunting/gathering areas, such as British Columbia, native groups followed a different path, and achieved high populations and cohesive social organizations, based on hunting/gathering and specialization, but not agriculture.

In other, less rich areas (semi-arid or arid deserts with good water supplies), agriculture was an alternate path. It often led to agricultural surpluses (to last the winter), which in turn often led to walled cities and part-time armies to protect that surplus from marauders.


So far as I know, Milligan had no connection with the Mormon Church, but he was a maverick in his field because he believed more of the ancient American peoples came from the south, probably by sea, and moved northward rather than migrated over the Bearing Strait land bridge as is more popular in the field.

The DNA studies do not support this idea. Following is a link to a very recent article on the DNA of the founding New World populations. It is titled Beringian Standstill and Spread of Native American Founders, by Erika Tamm et al. (2007).

53 posted on 11/17/2007 8:13:48 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: nesnah
I’m sorry, but your desire for a “gotcha” is getting the best of you. That is not an exact transcript of what JS said. They didn’t have tape recorders in that day. And the sermon was not given from a pre-written text. You have to depend on context. JS was giving a morning sermon, and two people in the congregation were trying their best to keep up with him and write down what he said. The sentence you quote is in the account of Thomas Bullock, and the original of that has been lost. The other person trying to keep up with JS was Willard Richards, and he does not include that statement.
But even if it was accurate, it still does not make a general statement about who has done the most. JS has said just the opposite in other places. I think you know I am right. You would just like people to jump to the wrong conclusion.
54 posted on 11/17/2007 8:25:39 PM PST by broncobilly
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To: TheDon

“NEWLY FOUND ALTARS FROM NAHOM”

LOL Find me an unbiased site. Not BYU!


55 posted on 11/17/2007 8:41:00 PM PST by swmobuffalo (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
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To: Young Werther

Chinese also use the blood of a lamb to indicate forgiveness. Does this mean they were Jews??? HAHAHa


56 posted on 11/17/2007 8:45:35 PM PST by ruthles (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't out to get you.)
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To: Vigilanteman
Most compelling about Ed's theory was not the ancient legends which collaborated it, but the observable fact that the level of ancient civilization decreased rather than increased when moving south to north. If the Bearing Straight theory was such an ironclad fact, then we ought to have ruins along the coast of say, modern day British Columbia which rival those of the Inca in Peru.

Quite interesting.

57 posted on 11/17/2007 8:46:54 PM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: vladimir998
Non-Mormon archaeologists take the whole thing "as a complete fantasy, that this is a big waste of time,"
58 posted on 11/17/2007 8:54:23 PM PST by delacoert
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To: Vigilanteman
I am interested in old “Indian” legends. {I can’t get your link to work}
59 posted on 11/17/2007 8:58:02 PM PST by labette
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To: delacoert

William G. Dever (head of Near Eastern Studies Department and professor of Near Eastern archaeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona), a non-Mormon biblical archaeologist claims that “it should never be supposed that the purpose of archaeology was to ‘prove’ the Bible in any sense” (Dever, 1990a, 26; italics added). He notes elsewhere:

The Bible . . . has its limitations as a historical document. . . . The myths of Genesis 1-11, comprising the “primeval history,” which deal with the creation, the flood and the distant origins of the family of man, can be read today as deeply moving literature, with profound moral implications. They inform us about the thought-world of ancient Israel, but they can hardly be read in the literal or modern sense as history. (Dever, 1990b, 52.)

And,

...while archaeology has been able to document in general the pastoral nomadic lifestyle depicted in Genesis throughout the second millennium B.C. (and other periods), it has not brought to light any direct evidence to substantiate the story that Abraham lived, that he migrated from Mesopotamia to Canaan, or that there was a Joseph who found his way to Egypt and rose top power there. ...The tradition is made up of legends that still may be regarded as containing moral truths, but until now they have been of uncertain historical provenance. ...Absolutely no trace of Moses, or indeed of an Israelite presence in Egypt, has ever turned up. Of the exodus and wander in the wilderness— events so crucial in the Biblical recitation of the “mighty acts of God”— we have no evidence whatsoever; nor are we likely to have any, since slaves, serfs, and nomads leave few traces in the archaeological record. (Dever, 1990a, 24.)

“...after a century of modern research,” writes Dever, “neither Biblical scholars nor archaeologists have been able to document as historical any of the events, much less the personalities, of the patriarchal or Mosaic era” (ibid., 5).


60 posted on 11/17/2007 9:16:12 PM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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