Posted on 12/16/2007 4:05:55 PM PST by NYer
I'm kinda non-denominational...Just a sinner, saved by grace thru faith, without works of any sort...
Care to explain what happens when you partake of the Eucharist?
Paul certainly wasn't ignorant of the Gospel that was being preached, was he? According to Scripture, Paul spent a great amount of time with Peter. There is the added bonus that Mark, who would eventually write a Gospel on behalf of Peter, also joined them on their travels. So the sources of Luke - whether they be Paul or Peter - certainly lead back to eyewitnesses.
That said, if, as you say, Paul did not influence Luke's Gospel, then even moreso, the Gospel of Luke indicates that the early Christian church - as early as St. Paul - venerated Mary. The Magnificat is quite similar to hymns penned in honor of Zecheriah, father of John the Baptist, and Simeon at the Lord's presentation. If Luke appealed to outside sources instead of or in addition to the Apostles, then Mary was clearly honored by the eyewitnesses to Christ. No one else but Mary has the audacity to say, "all generations shall call me blessed". If you believe the Gospel is the infallible Word of God, then to deny her the honor she is due violates this direct command.
Kinda thought so....non-denominational=lazy.
I can't imagine where you got that...Paul actually spent very little time with Peter...
No one else but Mary has the audacity to say, "all generations shall call me blessed". If you believe the Gospel is the infallible Word of God, then to deny her the honor she is due violates this direct command.
What command...There's no command there...Mary was making a statement of fact...
I don't deny Mary the honor she is due...She was the mother of Jesus...And she was blessed...
But according to Jesus, those that heard His words and kept them were MORE blessed...
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Lazy??? Quite the contrary...I don't sit around waiting for a pope or priest to tell me what to believe...I do as the Lord commanded...I study the scripture...
It's not an act of concupiscence to intercede or petition, so even if He did nothing, her request wouldn't be a sin any more than Jesus would have sinned by asking God to take away the cup of suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane, knowing full well He had to go to the cross.
The commentary makes Mary a prophet.
In baptism, we're all prophets, priests, and kings. Mary, full of grace, indeed enjoyed the gift of prophecy. This had to be a tremendous source of sorrow, knowing that her Son came to die, AND in spite of her motherhood, having to positively will it, since that was His will. Contrast that with Peter's impulsively trying to steer Jesus away from the cross. In light of this, her place at the foot of the cross was an act of sheer strength.
Wouldn't the commentary be saying that the Prophet Mary knew God's will better than Jesus? If not, how do you explain away the portion of the passage that is in bold, "my hour is not yet come"?
"My hour is not yet come" doesn't refer to His first miracle, it refers to His last. The water changed into wine is only a precursor of His taking wine and changing it into His blood, but this public revelation straightens the path to the cross. It's truly not "his hour", but it certainly winds the clock. Jesus identifies the significance of this event as it relates to the Last Supper, but especially the final act of redemption, spilling water and blood from His side at Golgotha. It is there that Jesus utters the final response to this request: "It is finished."
HAHAHHAH!!! You have been filled with min-information and hatred for the Catholic Church.....do so at your own peril.
Galatians 1:18
"Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. "
What command...There's no command there...Mary was making a statement of fact...
The word "shall" implies command, as elsewhere employed in the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rules of Christ. The Holy Spirit is commanding that we honor Mary. It would seem strange for her to declare herself handmaiden, then demand honor of her own volition.
But according to Jesus, those that heard His words and kept them were MORE blessed...
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
You're missing the verse preceeding this, and it makes a huge difference in explanation:
Luk 11:27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!"
Jesus is telling this woman that Mary's blessedness isn't a genetic trait - her blessedness is about hearing and keeping His word. She's not blessed because she bore and nursed Him. She's blessed because she does His will. And this blessedness is open to all of us who follow suit.
As an aside, on Luk 11:27, it’s possible (likely?) the woman who stood up and spoke to Jesus didn’t know who His mother was, and was not blessing Mary specifically, but offering up some generic praise, which makes sense, seeing that she didn’t actually name Mary, and Jesus did not respond with her name in kind. It might be interesting to find out if this kind of phrasing was a high form of praise common to that culture.
We're commanded by the Church to read from it at every Mass. These take place every single day across the world, so I'm not sure where you get the impression Catholics don't read the Bible.
The bible is just weak isn't it?
The Bible isn't weak. It also doesn't interpret itself. All interpretation is an employment of tradition, whether it's Peter, Luther, John Calvin or Al Sharpton. Those who reject Tradition can't even impower themselves to interpret it.
and it doesn't say what you want it to say about Mary.
It doesn't matter what I want it to say. What it does say guides the interpretation which Tradition embraces, expounds upon, and passes along to future generations.
It's incomplete and it's interpretation can only be done by a select few people that abstain from sex.
Like Jesus?
I am starting to understand why discussing Scripture with RC's always seems so pointless and always leaves me trying to defend my faith in the Word of God.
What faith? Without works, your faith is dead - at least that's what Scripture says...
To: raygunfan
that is simply not true...you can not have the perfect, sinless, God-man, inside the body stained with sin.
Care to explain what happens when you partake of the Eucharist?
ME: before you take part in the eucharist, you are to attend confession and receive the sacrament of reconciliation, thus your cleansed and forgiven of the sins, therefore you can ‘receive the eucharist worthily’
That supports shouldn't, not can't.
I love your responses, because they make me work. It’s gonna take me awhile to get back to your post, but I give you permission to nag me if it seems that I’m taking too long.
It’s okay. I’m going to be out of commission next week, so if I don’t hear from you, have a Merry Christmas!
You have a very Merry Christmas yourself.
I have somewhere to go today, but it’s cold out, so I have been procrastinating. Trying to kick myself into gear to go face the cold, but tinkering around on FR is so much more attractive... I haven’t had my mind on tackling my response to you either, but it’s not gonna take until next week. lol
ME: before you take part in the eucharist, you are to attend confession and receive the sacrament of reconciliation, thus your cleansed and forgiven of the sins, therefore you can ‘receive the eucharist worthily’
YOU:
That supports shouldn’t, not can’t.
Rutles,
This is a very good post and an excellent explanation.
Just as an added note: whenever Jesus spoke of his “hour”, he referred to the Cross—as does all Biblical reference to an “hour”. Biblically, the “hour” is a time of trial and suffering.
When there is a reference to “day” it is always referencing His Resurrection and/or his Day of returning—the “Day of the Lord”.
ROE
So you're saying He taught that those who didn't go through the sacrament of reconciliation before partaking the Eucharist transformed the Eucharist back into its pre-consecrated form?
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