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"Theotokos" sums up all that Mary is
Insight Scoop ^ | December 15, 2007 | Carl E. Olson

Posted on 12/16/2007 4:05:55 PM PST by NYer

God has a mother and she was chosen before the beginning of time.


This is an amazing belief, one that is sometimes mocked and often misunderstood, and misrepresented, sometimes even by Catholics. Yet this truth is at the heart of Advent and Christmas–as well as at the heart of the entire Christian Faith.


This belief is also captured in a short phrase in the Hail Mary: "Holy Mary, Mother of God." They are just five simple words, but words bursting with mystery and meaning. They tell us many things about Mary and about the Triune God and His loving plan of salvation for mankind, in which Mary has such a significant place.


Mary is holy. To be holy is to be set apart, to be pure, and to be filled with the life of God. The call to holiness, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, is summarized in Jesus' words: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48; CCC 2013). Mary's holiness comes from the same source as the holiness that fills all who are baptized and are in a state of race. But Mary's relationship with the Triune God is unique, as Luke makes evident in his description of Gabriel appearing to Mary:

And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God" (Lk 1:35)

Possessing perfect faith, itself a gift from God, Mary was overshadowed by God the Father, anointed by the Holy Spirit, and filled by the Son. She was chosen by God to bear the God-man, the One in whom the "whole fullness of deity" would dwell (CCC 484). Completely filled by God, she is completely holy. Chosen by God, she is saved. Called to share intimately and eternally in the life of her Son, she was, the Catechism explains, "redeemed from the moment of her conception" (CCC 49) and "preserved from the stain of original sin" (CCC 508).


The Pentateuch contains the account of how God chose a small, nondescript nomadic tribe, the Hebrews, to be His "holy people" for "His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth" (Deut 7:6). Many years later, in the fullness of time, God chose a young Jewish woman from a place of little consequence to be the Mother of God. This, in turn, would result in the birth of the Church, which Peter describes as a "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession" (1 Pet 2:9).


Mary, faithful and holy, is chosen so that others can also be chosen and made holy, transformed by her Son into the sons and daughters of God and joined to the Body of Christ. Mary "is the Virgo fidelis, the faithful virgin, who was never anything but faithful," writes Fr. Jean Daniélou, "whose fidelity was the perfect answer to the fidelity of God; she was always entirely consecrated to the one true God."


It has been said many ways and in many places but bears repeating that "Mother of God" is the greatest and most sublime title that Mary can ever be given. It sums up all that she is, all that she does, and all that she desires. The title of Theotokos ("God-bearer", or "Mother of God"), far from being some late addition to Church teaching, is rooted in Scripture and the Advent story. The Catechism explains that Mary was "called in the Gospels 'the mother of Jesus'" and that she "is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as 'the mother of my Lord'" (CCC 495).



Mary, the Mother of God, is also the first disciple of her Son, the God-man. She is also the New Eve, whose obedience and gift of her entire being overturns the sin and rebellion of the first Eve. Her Son is the New Adam, who comes to give everlasting, supernatural life and heal the mortal wound inflicted by the sin of the first Adam (cf. 1 Cor 15:45).


The lives and the love of the New Adam and the New Eve fill the season of Advent. Mary quietly and patiently calls all men to Bethlehem to see and worship the Christ Child. Jesus waits for mankind to recognize Him as Lord and Savior. But He doesn't just wait for us; He comes to us. But His coming awaits completion, both in our individual lives and in the life of the world. Which is why James, in today's epistle, writes, " Be patient, brothers and sisters, until the coming of the Lord. . . . . You too must be patient. Make your hearts firm,because the coming of the Lord is at hand" (Jas 5:7-10).


Fr. Daniélou explains beautifully this paradox of Advent, of Jesus having come already and yet coming still:

"We live always during Advent, we are always waiting for the Messiah to come. He has come, but is not yet fully manifest. He is not fully manifest in each of our souls; He is not fully manifest in mankind as a whole; that is to say, that just as Christ was born according to the flesh in Bethlehem of Judea so must He be born according to the spirit in each of our souls."

Although young, poor, and faced with incredible challenges, Mary waited patiently on the promises and the coming of her Lord and Son. The Catechism says that because Mary "gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: 'Let it be to me according to your word.' By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: 'Thy will be done.'" (CCC 2677). That is indeed the perfect prayer, from the perfect woman and mother, for Advent: "Thy will be done."



God’s grace redeems the Virgin

The Church recently celebrated the great Feast of the Immaculate Conception, situated to draw Catholics more deeply into the mystery of God's grace, Mary's faith, and the plan of salvation. Although not formally defined as a doctrine of the Catholic Church until 1854 by Pope Pius IX, belief in Mary's sinlessness goes back to the earliest centuries of the Church and is rooted in Scripture, especially the first chapter of Luke's Gospel.


In the encyclical Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX formally stated the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [135 Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854); CCC 491]

Although the Eastern Orthodox recognize and celebrate Mary's sinlessness, many Protestants do not. Some, in fact, take great offense with this belief, insisting that it makes light of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, and that it implies that Mary is more than a creature, perhaps even equal to her Son.


But the Church makes very clear that Mary's Immaculate Conception is a gift of God. After all, Mary was "redeemed from the moment of her conception," making it difficult for her redemption to be her own work. And Pope Pius IX's definition strongly states that the Immaculate Conception was "by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God" and by the work and merits of Mary's Son. Sadly, some Christians not only reject this truth, they even resort of saying that Mary "not special" or "not worthy of praise"–even though Mary, inspired by the Holy Spirit, declared that "from this time on all generations will count me blessed" (Lk 1:48).


John Cardinal Newman once noted that Catholic beliefs about Jesus and His Mother are intimately connected and cannot be torn apart from one another. "Catholics who have honoured the Mother, still worship the Son," he wrote, "while Protestants, who now have ceased to confess the Son, began . . . by scoffing at the Mother." It is a cautionary statement that all Christians, including Catholics, should take to heart during the Advent season.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: bvm; mary; theotokos
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1 posted on 12/16/2007 4:05:57 PM PST by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

THEOTOKOS

2 posted on 12/16/2007 4:08:21 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
There is absolutely NO Biblical truth in this: ...and "preserved from the stain of original sin" (CCC 508).

If any human besides Christ the Lord was born without the stain of original sin, then the entirety of Christianity is for nothing. The reason Christ was born the way He was (immaculate) is to preserve His Holiness and proof of His being God. Every human born of this world has original sin imprinted upon us. This oviously includes Mary, the bearer of Christ.

3 posted on 12/16/2007 4:34:02 PM PST by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: vpintheak

that is simply not true...you can not have the perfect, sinless, God-man, inside the body stained with sin.

just as nothing unclean can enter heaven, nothing that is of heaven can dwell in something unclean.

the living tabernacle of Mary was immaculate, just as the old testament, the arc of the convenant contained the sinless word, and was designed by God and told to the builders how to make it perfect, so was Mary, made perfect, before all time, so that she could be the living arc of the convenant to contain the pure God-man.

so,it is biblical in every sense.


4 posted on 12/16/2007 4:43:46 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: NYer

U heard Carl Olson speak recently. Very good.


5 posted on 12/16/2007 4:48:43 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
"Catholics who have honoured the Mother, still worship the Son," he wrote, "while Protestants, who now have ceased to confess the Son, began . . . by scoffing at the Mother."

Yep...This is right up there with walking under ladders, going back home if a black cat crosses your path, etc...It's amazing what they will tell you guys to keep you comin' and payin'...

6 posted on 12/16/2007 5:14:42 PM PST by Iscool
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To: NYer
And look at that picture...You have Mary holding a teen-aged kid that is a little dwarf...

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Looks like you all got it a bit backwards...You've increased Mary over Jesus so much that it appears she is the one you guys worship over God...

You have any pictures of Mary kneeling at the feet of the full grown Jesus??? That'll shock me if you do...

7 posted on 12/16/2007 5:22:33 PM PST by Iscool
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To: raygunfan
that is simply not true...you can not have the perfect, sinless, God-man, inside the body stained with sin.

Don't you read the scriptures??? The perfect, sinless God is in every actual Chritian that you ever met, in the form of the Holy Spirit...

8 posted on 12/16/2007 5:24:32 PM PST by Iscool
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To: raygunfan; vpintheak; NYer

NYer, the first part of this article is great. The second part, with that 19th century IC “dogma” is truly unfortunate. I understand tat within the last 50 years or so the Maronites have signed on with that notion, but in the past I understand it was not accepted. I further understand that in Lebanon it isn’t accepted except to the extent that it is necessary to “pay lip service” as one Lebanese fellow put it to me the other day, to the “Magisterium”. True?

“There is absolutely NO Biblical truth in this: ...and “preserved from the stain of original sin” (CCC 508).”

and

“that is simply not true...you can not have the perfect, sinless, God-man, inside the body stained with sin.”

Remarkable how the unfortunate Augustinian innovation of “Original Sin”, a thoroughly non-patristic notion, causes trouble in Western Christianity.

RGF, what vpintheak has posted is thoroughly patristic. The Most Holy Theotokos was completely human, not some goddess, though I will grant you that the “Co Redemptrix” crowd might lead one to believe otherwise. She was born like all the rest of us, burdened with the consequences of the Sin of Adam. She was in need of the Savior just like the rest of us. The Latin innovation of the IC is a necessary result of the Augutinian theology of “Original Sin” which contributed so much to the West’s departure from the patristic theology of The Church.

And vpintheak, as I said, your conclusion is correct, but there is no such thing as “original sin” staining anyone’s soul!


9 posted on 12/16/2007 5:25:46 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer; Vom Willemstad K-9; managusta; LikeLight; sure_fine; OAKC0N; time4good; Mike32; genxer; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

10 posted on 12/16/2007 5:28:54 PM PST by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: vpintheak
This it not meant to persuade, okay?

Isn't it the hope of the elect that they will one day be washed clean of the stain of sin? And don't we profess that that washing is with the blood of Christ shed on the Cross? Is it correct to say that those among humankind who are saved by grace through Faith in Christ are saved in His blood and in that blood finally made unspotted?

Then all we are "adding" to that is that that eschatological effect of the Sacrifice in Christ "came true" in Mary at the moment of her conception. She was not, in other words, by her own inherent nature or act immaculate. She was immaculate by the "application" (so to speak) to her of the saving act of Christ at the moment of her conception. The cross is what made Mary immaculate, we say.

Every human born of this world has original sin imprinted upon us.

Seriously, does that include Adam and Eve?

I really mean that I am to trying to persuade you of this, but rather trying to show PART of how we think of it, in hopes that that will clarify that, as we think of it, the Immaculate conception so far from vitiates Christ's sacrifice that it is, rather, one of the most gracious fruits of it.

11 posted on 12/16/2007 7:23:35 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: NYer

Thank you for this. Think I’ll skip most of the comments on this one.


12 posted on 12/16/2007 8:14:09 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: vpintheak

uhmmm, so...how does a sinless Christ come from a sinful mother?


13 posted on 12/16/2007 8:25:54 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (chaos is an illusion.)
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To: NYer

Ave Maria!


14 posted on 12/16/2007 8:26:59 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (chaos is an illusion.)
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To: Kolokotronis

Isn’t there something like if it’s Greek, it’s orthodox. Fact is that the Greeks never understood the nature of the conflict between Pelagius and Augustine, heace what Augustine or the Latin Church meant by “Original Sin.” Not understanding the history of the contraversy, the Greeks were fooled by Pelagius and his disciples, whose doctrine is more “Jewish” than many think. At the extreme, it requires no redeemer at all.


15 posted on 12/16/2007 8:53:21 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: vpintheak

The mythology surrounding Mary boggles the mind!


16 posted on 12/16/2007 9:13:18 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Kolokotronis

What is your proof of no original sin? I am interested.


17 posted on 12/16/2007 9:37:01 PM PST by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: Mad Dawg

Adam and Eve were not born of this world. God created them, first Adam, then Eve from Adam. Sin entered the world, all of humanity since that time has been born into sin except Christ.


18 posted on 12/16/2007 9:40:47 PM PST by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: LiteKeeper

You mind can get unboggled if it just separates the popular devotions to Mary from the Church doctrine. Even the former , however, can be instructive. however. As Queen of Angels, she is his messenger to millions, as a symbol ofHis mercy and of His justice.


19 posted on 12/17/2007 2:05:14 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: the invisib1e hand

***uhmmm, so...how does a sinless Christ come from a sinful mother?***

This leads to another question...How does a sinless mother come from sinful grandparents.


20 posted on 12/17/2007 2:35:38 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Only infidel blood can quench Muslim thirst-- Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri)
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To: Kolokotronis
And vpintheak, as I said, your conclusion is correct, but there is no such thing as “original sin” staining anyone’s soul!

As much respect as I have for my Orthodox brethren, I have always wondered how they reconcile the belief in 'no original sin' with the following passage from St. Paul's letter to the Romans:

Rom 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--
Rom 5:13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Because the issue of the Immaculate Conception would be utterly irrelevant if there was no original sin...but the above quote is pretty persuasive regarding original sin. So how do you Orthodox types interpret the above passage without reference to original sin?

21 posted on 12/17/2007 3:15:14 AM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley; vpintheak

In haste because I’m off to the salt mine; more later. Everything you have quoted points to what the Greek Fathers called “The Sin of Adam” or “Ancestral Sin”, the consequences of which, the inability to resist sin and bondage to death, Christ, by his Incarnation, rescued us. The icon of the Resurrection graphically depicts this. Because of the Sin of Adam, human beings were unable to fulfill their created purpose which is to become like God. It has nothing to do with some inherent “genetic” state of sinfulness, far less with anything to do with “stains” or guilt for what Adam did and a God Who is so pissed off that He demanded the bloody death of His only Son to slake that wrath.

You are of course correct that the IC is meaningless without the idea of Original Sin as expressed by Augustine; in fact, many, maybe even most, of the theological differences between the East and West arise out of Augustine’s innovative theology and what others, especially the Schoolmen and the Reformers did with it.


22 posted on 12/17/2007 4:22:03 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer
"Catholics who have honoured the Mother, still worship the Son," he wrote, "while Protestants, who now have ceased to confess the Son, began . . . by scoffing at the Mother.

The Church and Satan agreed together in this, that Son and Mother went together; and the experience of three centuries has confirmed their testimony, for Catholics who have honoured the Mother, still worship the Son, while Protestants, who now have ceased to confess the Son, began then by scoffing at the Mother.

23 posted on 12/17/2007 7:10:21 AM PST by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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To: RobbyS

Where do you get these ideas? There is NO scriptural support for you assertions. And you take away from the works of Christ by attributing any of these things to Mary.


24 posted on 12/17/2007 7:18:01 AM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: RobbyS

“Isn’t there something like if it’s Greek, it’s orthodox.”

Yes, I seem top recall that as a basic principle of patristic theology! :)

“Fact is that the Greeks never understood the nature of the conflict between Pelagius and Augustine, heace what Augustine or the Latin Church meant by “Original Sin.””

Of course we understood it, though sadly not until it was far too late to do anything practical about it.

“Not understanding the history of the contraversy, the Greeks were fooled by Pelagius and his disciples, whose doctrine is more “Jewish” than many think.”

But you see, we thoroughly understood what Pelagius was saying as opposed to what others said he was saying. What we saw at the time was a tempest in a tea pot brought to a boil by the remnants of Blessed Augustine’s Manichianism.

“At the extreme, it requires no redeemer at all.”

That’s likely true. The teachings of Celestius pretty much say exactly that and are often, wrongly, attributed to Pelagius. Celestius was anathemized as a heretic in the East. So was Pelagius, but in truth that was because of the company he kept (Nestorius)more than because of his theology.


25 posted on 12/17/2007 7:30:40 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: the invisib1e hand
uhmmm, so...how does a sinless Christ come from a sinful mother?

Easily answered (spoken by an angel to Mary herself):

"For nothing is impossible with God" ~ Luke 1:37

Or in the words of Jesus:

"....with God all things are possible." ~ Matthew 19:26

I don't really see a biblical problem with this anyway. As a previous post said - the Spirit of God is housed in the sinful flesh of every believer.

In Christ
marinamuffy

26 posted on 12/17/2007 8:01:06 AM PST by marinamuffy ("..pacifism ensures that cruelty will prevail on earth." - Dennis Prager/ www.gohunter08.com)
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To: marinamuffy

No sense in letting a little bible get in the way of religion...


27 posted on 12/17/2007 8:04:09 AM PST by Iscool
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To: vpintheak
If any human besides Christ the Lord was born without the stain of original sin,

Original Sin isn't transmitted at birth, it's transmitted at conception, when the soul is infused. If I understand correctly, you're saying that it's not possible for God to prevent this Original Sin from attaching to Mary at her conception?

then the entirety of Christianity is for nothing.

If God didn't have the power to save Mary prior to being conceived within her womb, then Christianity really is a charade.

28 posted on 12/17/2007 8:17:27 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Iscool
Don't you read the scriptures??? The perfect, sinless God is in every actual Chritian that you ever met, in the form of the Holy Spirit...

Ummmm.... the Incarnation is not about God coming to us in Spirit, it's about God coming to us as the Word made flesh. If you see anyone walking around getting ready to give birth to God in the flesh, let me know. Otherwise, your analogy fails remarkably.

29 posted on 12/17/2007 8:22:25 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: LiteKeeper
There is NO scriptural support for you assertions.

Interesting. I disagree. Can you prove me wrong?

30 posted on 12/17/2007 8:31:55 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: vpintheak

You are a silly non-thinker if you actually haven;’t thought about the MOTHER of GOD having to be SINLESS! It ONLY makes sense....if not, He, the SAVIOR of the WORLD could have been born to Britney Spears or anyone else! Good grief....you are BLINDED by your dislike of the Catholic Church so much you cant see.


31 posted on 12/17/2007 8:35:25 AM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion: The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Iscool

payin’....hmmmm..I think it’s PROTESTANTS who insist on their members TYHTHING....isn’t it???


32 posted on 12/17/2007 8:36:28 AM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion: The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Iscool

Can I ask you a question? Why do you hate the Virgin Mary SO MUCH?

Do you really think Jesus is impressed by your insults of His Mother?


33 posted on 12/17/2007 8:36:49 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Iscool

YIKERS@! What religion are you?


34 posted on 12/17/2007 8:37:20 AM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion: The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Holy Spirit.


35 posted on 12/17/2007 8:38:36 AM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion: The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: LiteKeeper
And you take away from the works of Christ by attributing any of these things to Mary.

All of the things attributed to Mary are the works of Christ.

36 posted on 12/17/2007 8:50:06 AM PST by Campion
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To: NYer

Jesus is all I need.


37 posted on 12/17/2007 8:56:46 AM PST by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Can I ask you a question? Why do you hate the Virgin Mary SO MUCH?

I don't hate Mary at all...And she hasn't been a virgin for some time now...

Mary's not the problem...Your religion is...

Your church encourages people to refrain from praying to God but instead praying to the Mother of Jesus and dead people...

Your focus is not on God, it's on Mary...Look at any Catholic picture of Mary and Jesus and see who the focus is on...Jesus is always the little tiny guy in the painting and Mary is larger than life...

Mary has no role in the salvation of anyone...Beyond the book of Acts, she's never mentioned again in the scripture...

Paul was the apostle to the Gentile church, of which I am a member...Paul never gave Mary, your Queen of Heaven and Mother of God, an ounce of consideration...

There are two religions that venerate Mary...You guys and the muzzelims...

38 posted on 12/17/2007 9:17:43 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Rutles4Ever
Do you really think Jesus is impressed by your insults of His Mother?

I have never insulted the Mother of Jesus...

The Queen of heaven (which Mary is not) is quite another story tho...I think no more of the Queen of heaven than God does...

39 posted on 12/17/2007 9:19:40 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Ann Archy
if not, He, the SAVIOR of the WORLD could have been born to Britney Spears or anyone else! Good grief

Then it also makes sense then that God would have made his apostles sinless and educated...What good are a bunch of dumb, sinning fishermen going around being ambassadors to the God of creation??? Makes Jesus look sorta foolish doesn't it???

Maybe Jesus picked these unlikely people for this reason:

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;

40 posted on 12/17/2007 9:34:23 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Rutles4Ever
Can I ask you a question? Why do you hate the Virgin Mary SO MUCH?

Compared to Jesus, she doesn't register.

41 posted on 12/17/2007 9:35:03 AM PST by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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To: Ann Archy
YIKERS@! What religion are you?

I'm a Bible Believing Christian...

42 posted on 12/17/2007 9:35:45 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Ann Archy
You are a silly non-thinker if you actually haven;’t thought about the MOTHER of GOD having to be SINLESS! It ONLY makes sense....if not, He, the SAVIOR of the WORLD could have been born to Britney Spears or anyone else! Good grief....you are BLINDED by your dislike of the Catholic Church so much you cant see.

So you are saying that all women that are not Mary are equal to Britney Spears in morality? Yes someone definitely has a sight problem.

43 posted on 12/17/2007 9:36:51 AM PST by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Yes, I agree.


44 posted on 12/17/2007 9:43:11 AM PST by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: Ann Archy

I have many Catholic friends, quit playing the liberal strawman game. Where in the Bible does it say Mary was sinless? That is pure heresy. We are instructed to test, test, test. Jesus Christ has no mother, only the human woman who gave him birth in order to be both God and man. Please again, send me Biblical evidence of Mary being sinless.


45 posted on 12/17/2007 9:46:58 AM PST by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: vpintheak
Jesus Christ has no mother, only the human woman who gave him birth ...

Well, that is what mothers do...

46 posted on 12/17/2007 10:00:15 AM PST by Zero Sum (Liberalism: The damage ends up being a thousand times the benefit! (apologies to Rabbi Benny Lau))
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To: the invisib1e hand
you could also look at it like this. A sinless Christ came from a sinless Father. It is important to note that sin entered the world through Adam and not Eve, eventhough Eve was the one that sinned first. It can be said that the sin nature is trasmuted from the father to the son.

The logic of requiring Jesus to have a sinless mother is a little off, because if Mary were sinless, would not her parents need to be sinless in order to conceive her, because how could a sinless vessel, Mary, be born of sinful individuals. If you say then that God could have made it possible, then why can you not say that God made it possible for Jesus?

JM
47 posted on 12/17/2007 10:02:27 AM PST by JohnnyM
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To: Campion
" All of the things attributed to Mary are the works of Christ."

Ever heard of the Law of Non-Contradiction? You cannot say Mary participates in the process of salvation, and that Christ did it. It is either One or the other...it can't be both. That is just not logical.

48 posted on 12/17/2007 10:05:06 AM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: LiteKeeper

And why do you simply dismiss out of hand what we read in the first two chapters of Luke? You treat Mary as their were no essential difference between her office and that of Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the mother of a prophet, a woman whose conceives late in life to a man dedicated to the proclamation of the Word. Mary is a virgin and the mother of Our Lord . Your view of her represents, to me, a low Christology, and does her no more honor than does the Koran, for whom Jesus is simply the forerunner of Mohammed.


49 posted on 12/17/2007 10:09:10 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: Iscool
I don't hate Mary at all...

Not according to your posts.

And she hasn't been a virgin for some time now...

And you've proven this how?

Your church encourages people to refrain from praying to God but instead praying to the Mother of Jesus and dead people...

Instead? Where did you come up with that? As for talking to dead people, what the heck was Jesus doing talking to Lazarus in the tomb? Who was Peter talking to when he performed the miracle of resurrection in Acts?

Your focus is not on God, it's on Mary...

Wait - I thought we were too focused on the Eucharist. Now we're too focused on Mary? Which is it?

Jesus is always the little tiny guy in the painting and Mary is larger than life...

LOL!

Mary has no role in the salvation of anyone...Beyond the book of Acts, she's never mentioned again in the scripture...

LOL! The New Testament isn't compiled chronologically or in order of importance. BTW, the Gospel of Luke, which declares that Mary will be called "blessed" by all generations was written by Paul's associate and traveling companion, Luke. It's essentially Paul's Gospel, but don't let that ruin your daydream.

Paul was the apostle to the Gentile church, of which I am a member...Paul never gave Mary, your Queen of Heaven and Mother of God, an ounce of consideration...

See above.

There are two religions that venerate Mary...You guys and the muzzelims...

True. Muslims descend from Adam and Eve, too. That invalidates everyone then?

50 posted on 12/17/2007 10:10:50 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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