Posted on 01/05/2008 7:06:01 AM PST by NYer
WIMAUMA - Father Demetrio Lorden walks into the garage of a concrete block house, slips on his robe and vestments, and unpacks a gold chalice.
He tests a microphone, and as dogs howl nearby, a small group of Hispanic workers and their families launches into a discordant song of praise.
Lorden calls this his "evangelism Mass," the one he has every Monday night in houses and mobile home camps of the Wimauma immigrant community.
Like other Catholic priests with Hispanic members, Lorden is trying to fend off competitors for the parishioners in his pews.
Protestant evangelists - people just as dedicated as he is, but with a quite different approach to Christianity - are aggressively recruiting on his turf. Some target workers as they labor in the fields; others approach them in their homes or at local bodegas, grocery stores.
Catholic priests like Lorden are responding with outreach and Bible studies, hoping to hold on to this large and growing population.
"Hispanic immigrants need to know someone is there caring for them," said Lorden, pastor of Our Lady of Guadalupe church. "But one of the things that pushed me to do that fervently and constantly was because ... other churches and denominations are visiting them and proselytizing them."
Sometimes Lorden's home-based Masses are the only contact workers have with the Catholic church, said Alejandro Lopez, 34, a construction worker who attended Lorden's service on a recent Monday night.
For those who can't make Sunday Mass because of work, Lorden's service helps sustain their faith, especially during hard times, Lopez said.
"It makes you feel better," he said.
The majority of Hispanics in the United States, or 68 percent, still call themselves Catholics. Of those who leave the Catholic church, most become Pentecostal or evangelical Christians or they leave religion all together, according to a national study released this year by the Pew Hispanic Center.
Some Catholic priests acknowledge that Protestant sects like the Pentecostals have responded faster and more aggressively to immigrants with aid and tight-knit worship circles in Spanish.
On a recent Saturday afternoon, the Rev. Jose Luis Correa, a Pentecostal pastor in Dover, handed out pamphlets with some church members as they walked through the parking lots of small Hispanic grocery stores or food stores with Hispanic patrons.
Then, they visited a mobile home park nestled between strawberry fields and railroad tracks. Many residents did not answer the door or weren't home. Others politely took the pamphlets and said they would come to church.
Sometimes, Correa said, he approaches them in the fields with water. Often he brings them clothes and food.
"We tell them we believe God will provide for their needs," said Correa, of Assembly of God or Templo Cristiano. "You're not going to reach them by being on a pulpit or sitting in an office."
Correa tackles their personal problems: marital disputes, alcoholism - a service sometimes lacking in the Catholic church.
For some immigrants like Edin Gonzalez, a 25-year-old Guatemalan carpenter who left most of his family behind, the church has become an instant community.
"It's like my second home. It's my family," he said.
* * *
When Hispanic converts from the Catholic church join Protestant sects, they let go of their attachment to the saints, religious images and Mary, the mother of Jesus, Correa said.
"We don't worship idols," he said.
Catholic priests bristle at the accusation and say Protestant evangelizers are tearing Hispanics away from their culture and faith.
"There's almost like a whole campaign to bring down the blessed Mother like she's the anti-Christ," said Father Carlos Rojas of St. Clement Catholic Church in Plant City.
Rojas, of Puerto Rican decent, said Hispanic Catholics, particularly Mexican Catholics, are very devoted to Mary.
They believe Mary, known as Our Lady of Guadalupe, appeared to a Mexican Indian peasant named Juan Diego in 1531. Juan Diego's story contributed greatly to Catholicism's spread in Mexico.
Recently, in a mix of religion and culture, St. Clement held a three-day festival and a two-day vigil to mark the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe that included Aztec dancers, mariachi bands and statues of the Virgin Mary.
The festival, which took place at the Plant City Stadium, drew 3,000 people, the first time it was held on such a large scale.
And it was yet another effort to cement the Catholic church's historical presence in the Hispanic community.
St. Clement, like other Catholic churches, started a Bible study for its Hispanic members in part to counter Protestant evangelizers, shifting from a tradition that left Bible readings and interpretations to priests.
"When you are entering into dialogue with other religions and people who are attacking the Catholic church, there is a need to have Bible studies," Rojas said. "If you are asked this question, here is a way you can respond."
Juan Gomez, pastor of the Church of God, a Protestant church in Wimauma, said his members don't attack Catholics. They just worship differently.
"We believe that (Mary) was a beautiful woman of God, but in terms of redemption, Christ is the one in terms of intercession, Christ is the interceder, not Mary, as they believe," said Gomez, who converted from Catholicism to the Church of God at 15 after immigrating to Ruskin from Mexico.
Gomez said he questions the Juan Diego story and the Catholic blending of religion with Hispanic culture.
But ultimately, newcomers aren't forced to stay in his church. If they don't like the spirited form of worship and Bible study, they go elsewhere.
"We try to bring people to a deeper relationship with Christ," he said. "It will always be up to the people."
Saundra Amrhein can be reached at amrhein@sptimes.com or (813) 661-2441.
Clear differences between the two
The battle for Hispanic faithful continues to brew between Catholics and Protestants, with both sides increasingly stepping up their recruitment efforts. Among the Protestant denominations, the Pentecostals have been particularly aggressive. Here are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants.
| PROTESTANTS vsCATHOLICS Believe the sacrament, or communion, is symbolic. Believe the sacrament istransformed into the body and blood of Christ. Have no supreme hierarchy such as a pope. Believe in the infallibility of the pope. Many churches, particularly Pentecostals, embrace aspirited worship style. Embrace a liturgical worship style. Allow women to pastor and become bishops. Allow only men to become priests and bishops. See no need for a priest to serve as a mediator between them and God. Revere Mary and the saints and ask them for intercession. Require confession before a priest. |
Source: Roman Catholic Diocese of St. Petersburg
Apparently you guys have a myriad of beliefs, that don't coincide with each other's...
I have read numerous times on these threads where Catholics do not believe in a literal heaven or hell...And I bet it wouldn't take me long to find something put out by your church that agrees with that statement...
Nope...But He gave limitations on what was acceptable...And philosophy is not acceptable...
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Man's Vanity !b'SHEM Yah'shuaThe goal should be to bring people to know Yah'shua.
As far as I’m concerned, if a person comes to Christ, I could care less what church it is in. I don’t see other Christians as competitors. I see them as allies.
Amen!
I wonder what a a graph would look like comparing the acceptance of Protestantism among Hispanics and the acceptance of birth control? I suspect Protestantism is progressing hand in hand with modernism. I suspect the two lines would more or less overlay one another.
You love to play fast and loose with words, don't you?
The official statement of what the Catholic Church professes is found in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Read it and see if you can find what you've predicted. You won't but the process of reading it might actually be instructive for you and do some good.
The truth of course, is that there are people of all religious persuasions who call themselves "Christian" but who do not believe in a literal heaven or hell. Similarly with Catholics.
The fundamental mistake which you make, however, is in your understanding of the word "church". The Catholic Church is a "top down" organization, with Jesus Christ as its head and which professes and guards a deposit of faith. It is not a "bottom up" organization. Therefore, if an individual or a group who call themselves Catholics profess a belief other than the official one, that does not make that belief "Catholic". It simply means that they and not the Church have embraced error. Ergo they are no longer Catholic.
In a horizontal, non-hierarchical church on the other hand, which is maybe what you are used to, it is far easier to confuse the beliefs (or lack thereof) of its members for the belief of the church itself. What is truth? It's whatever the preacher of the moment says it is. If you have a new preacher next week, it could be something different.
IOW, your non-Catholic approach to understanding "church" is in error and does not apply to the Catholic Church.
OR not good Catholics and not competent to be considered a source of Catholic teaching, anymore than a Baptist who believes the horoscope is competent to be a voice of Baptist thought.
I read some of your catechism...Enough to know that I don't find it instructive in light of scripture...Therefore it would do me no good to read all of it...
But I assume you are familiar with some or all of it...Enough to know the official position on heaven and hell...I find it interesting that you don't want to post the official position...
The fundamental mistake which you make, however, is in your understanding of the word "church".
I have no misunderstanding of the 'church' in the context of the New Testament church in scripture...Just because you make that claim doesn't make it so...
You may be an expert on what your religion teaches but that in no way makes you an expert or even an authority on the scriptural New Testament Church...
So now you AND marshmallow disagree on what would be official teaching of your church...
According ot marshmallow, one of you is no longer Catholic...Just thought I'd mention that...
Does the Catholic Church teach that it is a “place” or a “state”?
I think by “literal”, Iscool meant place.
Yep...
>ELCA Lutherans, Methodists, and others aren’t Protestants anymore?
Yup, these are starting to follow the Episcopalians. Women pastors lead to homosexual pastors and then everything goes... If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow.
Once one part of the Scripture is allowed to be ignored, the whole is up for grabs. Soon, all the little traditions become more important than the Holy Word, and soon we have people saying we cannot literally interpret any of it.
Of course due to the weakening of definitions in this Post Modern society, they will still be called Protestants, but they are falling away from the ideals of the Protestant Reformation.
The doctrinal definitions are being allowed to get muddied. Mormons claim the title Christian, as do up-jumped motivational speakers such as Osteen and Warren, or the univeralist emergents. I just wonder when the Muslims are going to start using the term...
Huh. I used to work weekends in a fabric store, and some Sundays a woman wearing a sash proclaiming her as "Princess Bishop" of one of the local storefront churches would come in to shop. So did the leader of the local coven, but that's another story.
And, as far as I can tell, the Catholic Church teaching would be described more as a "state", as opposed to a "symbol".
Vatican officials said the Pope - who is also the Bishop of Rome - had been speaking in "straightforward" language "like a parish priest".
He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that hell is a "state of eternal separation from God", to be understood "symbolically rather than physically".
Less this source mischaracterized official Church teaching.
The name "Protestant" shouldn't be applied to all non-Roman Catholic denominations. Who would the church that "Princess Bishop" is a member of be "protesting" against?
“Oh good. A fight! That’ll bring peace.”
Peace is the interval between the time you last stomped evil’s butt, and the time evil gets it together to attack you again.
So, yes, a fight is the only thing short of the Second Coming that can bring peace.
“But I AM going to do penance for the massively culpable way the Church south of the Rio Grande has behaved sometimes.”
It’s not always so great north of the Rio Grande, either. In the Boise diocese you could starve to death spiritually and physically before the Church would bestir itself...even before you could run one of these phantom priests to ground.
Of course, you could go to St. Paul’s Catholic center at Boise State University where Deacon Skoro teaches that “sex is the meaning of life.”
Among the problems that Protestants have is that they do not understand the difference between truth and the expression of truth, between accuracy and precision, and they do not understand the notion of context.
Did you know that if you are baptized with water in the name of the Trinity ou are a member of the Catholic Church? And that, despite the lies of anti-Catholics websites, excommunication does not constitute throwing you out of the Catholic Church?
Precision in discourse requires care and effort. Sometimes I have the energy to show that kind of care and to make that kind of effort. Sometimes not. Here it is Saturday, and my guess is that marshmallow was understandably careless in his or her choice of words.
Make the most of it. I stopped using that sort of gambit in adult discussions back in 1962 when I was 14.
Wow, we sure didn't cover THAT in RCIA! Darn Dominicans!
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”610
Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,”613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”614
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”615
The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”616
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”617
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.620
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