Posted on 01/17/2008 9:44:33 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Well... Mr. "You said yourself" has said a LOT of things that he NEVER came back on.
Don't waste a lot of your time expecting an answer here.
Not only is it OK for Mormons to investigate their faith, but Mormon leaders actually encourage it, and almost demand it.
If you're a Mormon, you need to obey your leaders and investigate your faith.
And I think that’s where the trouble is. Many Mormons here perceive any challenge to the Mormon belief system as a personal attack or an example of “anti-Mormon bigotry”.
++++++++++++++++++
Watch the difference in words. Most of the Radical Christians have been doing this long enough, to know most of what we hold sacred, and/or dear. Even with that knowledge, they continue to use demeaning guttural words to describe them.
If they were really trying to convert us, instead of just putting us down, they would be careful about offending us, while the were trying to teach us.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
If they were really trying to convert us, instead of just putting us down, they would be careful about offending us, while the were trying to teach us.
HMmmm...
Darn good idea!
My son's best friend is Wiccan. By coincidence his and my son's troops both ended up at Scout camp at the same time. He found my son's troop annoying (so does my son) and they had no idea how to take him. I mean, shhh, he's *gasp* Wiccan.
Same here. Wait! My surrogate sister is a church member. Other than her and the bishop my husband finds everyone in our ward terribly irritating to spend time with. My husband was always the designated driver for his friends. He, of course, doesn't drink. But, less for religious reasons and more because he's genetically cued to be an alcoholic. He said he always found it more fun to watch what everyone else get drunk
hoagies and grinders, hoagies and grinders...navy beans navy beans....SLOPPY Sloppy Joes, Sloppy Sloppy Joes, YEAH!
Some of my best friends are non Mormons - not to mention my whole entire family.
DEFINITIONS OF A CULT
1. The specific Christian definition of a cult is a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of Biblical truth. Or, in more simple terms, a cult is a group that teaches something that will cause a person to not be saved if they believe it. For example, teaching that Jesus was not God, or that salvation is not by faith alone – these two things are prime examples of a cult.
2. From an orthodox Christian perspective, a cult is a group of people who follow one man or the group’s spiritual teachings and practices that, when compared with orthodox Christian doctrine always contradict them, as well as exalt the group’s own unique religious perspective as the only way to truly serve God.
From a purely Biblical perspective, 2 Corinthians 11:4 gives us the clearest and most concise description of how cults may be discerned. False teachings, the apostle Paul warned here, will introduce three major errors to the unsuspecting in the name of Christianity:
A. First they will preach their own determination of who Jesus Christ is, denying his Biblically revealed identity as God the Son and exchanging it with another. They’ll point to “another Jesus.”
B. Second, cult teachers will proclaim a “gospel message” that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They’ll preach “another gospel.”
C. Third, the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They’ll be empowered by “another spirit.” This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.
In short, a cult will energetically claim to follow the Bible and be the only group to be found anywhere who really are interpreting it correctly (hence the rationale for some countercult workers calling some groups “Bible based”). Ultimately, once examined, a questionable group’s doctrines will always deny orthodox Biblical truth in some manner.
CATEGORIES OF CULTS
1. Eastern Mystical: groups related to Hinduism, Buddhism and other pantheistic Eastern religions; examples in this category are Hare Krishnas and Self-Realization Fellowship.
2. Aberrant Christian: groups that claim to be Bible-based but which deviate in practice or belief, such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, the Boston Church of Christ and the Shepherding Movement.
3. Psychospiritual or Self-Improvement: groups offering seminars or workshops providing self-improvement or personal transformation (a growing cultic trend), includes Transcendental Meditation, Lifespring and The Forum (formerly est).
4. Eclectic/Syncretistic: a combination of several religious traditions, includes the Unification Church (“Moonies”) and the Church Universal and Triumphant.
5. Psychic/Occult/Astral: these groups offer “secret wisdom” and “lost truths;” examples include UFO cults and Edgar Cayce’s Association for Research and Enlightenment.
6. Extremist/Political/Social Movements: groups cultic in the psychological or social sense including the Black Muslims, Aryan Nation, White Aryan Resistance and the Ku Klux Klan.
TEN COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABERRANT CHRISTIAN CULTS Note: Any of the below is indicative of cults. The more attributes that apply, the more serious the problem.
1. Founder who typically:
A. Is charismatic (at least in the eyes of cult members)
B. Has little or no formal or theological education
C. Has poor character (e.g. dishonest, sexually licentious
) D. Has noticeable personality disorders
E. Is revered by cult members
F. Claims special authority (e.g. prophet, apostle, divine messenger, etc.)
2. Divine Revelation claimed by the founder (or by cult leadership) which is:
A. Non-verifiable
B. Easily discredited (by science, archaeology, internal inconsistency, etc.)
C. Usually changes and/or evolves over time
D. Often similar (or identical) to earlier documented
heresies, especially: Aryanism, Gnosticism and paganism E. Intolerant – members cannot challenge (or even question) cult doctrine or decisions made by cult leadership
3. Overriding Authority (i.e. “correcting”, amending or even replacing the Bible) attributed to the special divine revelation
4. Non-Biblical Doctrine derived from the overriding authority, most commonly:
A. Denial of the authority and completeness of Scripture
B. Denial of the deity of Christ
C. Denial of the Holy Trinity
D. Salvation by works
5. Sin resulting from the non-Biblical doctrine, such as:
A. Poor treatment of women, disparagement of minorities and/or other forms of bigotry
B. Sexual immorality
C. Falsehood and deception
D. Theft
6. Secrecy particularly relating to:
A. Group finances
B. Membership (and frequently leadership) rosters
C. Doctrine – which may be only partially revealed (even to cult members) or may be revealed in a piecemeal fashion
D. Rites, rituals and/or initiations
E. Signs, signals or other means of identification and/or recognition
7. Seclusion, Isolation and/or Separation from society by:
A. Living in isolation (or at least in separate housing quarters)
B. Dressing differently, sometimes in special uniforms or costumes
C. Special group manners and/or mores
D. Unusual dietary requirements, or required abstinence from certain foods or other products (e.g. television, telephones, newspapers, etc.)
8. Control of Persons and/or Property such as:
A. Forfeiture of individual identity
B. Denial of an individual’s decision-making
C. Imposed poverty often through forfeiture of possessions (sometimes waived for cult leadership)
D. Mandatory tithing
E. Assigned duties and responsibilities
F. Communal raising of children; shared parenting; forced attendance at cult schools
G. Group sex, sharing of partners, and/or other forms of promiscuity
H. Celibacy (sometimes waived for cult leadership)
I. Involvement with psychogenic or hallucinogenic drugs
9. Strict Discipline through:
A. Rigid enforcement of (often numerous and arcane) cult rules
B. Guaranteed blessings and/or punishment in the afterlife
C. Harsh punishment (often both physical and/or psychological) for disobedience
D. Various ranks or levels of membership (e.g. priesthood), often with increasing benefits
10. “Group Think” by members frequently shown by:
A. Blind obedience and/or unquestioning loyalty – members cannot (or will not) question or challenge cult doctrine or decisions made by cult leadership
B. Inability to reason with cult members without their prior “deprogramming”
C. Feelings of persecution
D. Mass hysteria
E. Personal or third party destruction (e.g. suicide, murder, etc.)
Ping.
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good aconversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
3 Nephi 11:29
Maybe you should try quoting the Bible? But, that may direct you to the truth.
There are many serious objections to the claim of Joseph Smith and the LDS church that the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible. However, none are more significant than the numerous contradictions between Book of Mormon teaching and the Bible. This list is illustrative only, not exhaustive.
1. The Book of Mormon teaches that little children are not capable of sin because they do not have a sinful nature (Moroni 8:8). In contrast, the Bible in Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV). (This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost.*)
2. The Book of Mormon teaches that the disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit was necessary so that they could have children and bring joy to mankind (2 Nephi 2:23-25). In contrast, the Bible specifically declares that Adam’s transgression was a sinful act of rebellion that unleashed the power of sin and death in the human heart and throughout God’s perfect world (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 5:12; 8:20-21). There is no Biblical support for the view that Adam and Eve could only fulfill the command to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) by disobeying God’s command regarding the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17). The Book of Mormon teaching that these divine commands are contradictory, and that God expected Adam and Eve to figure out that in reality He wanted them to break the latter command ("of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it") in order to keep the former ("be fruitful and multiply"), has no basis in logic or the Biblical text, and attributes equivocation to God.
3. The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of God’s curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1).
4. The Book of Mormon teaches that, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32). In contrast, the Bible teaches that apart from Christ we are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1,5) and unable to do anything to merit forgiveness and eternal life. Salvation is wholly of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6), not by grace plus works. Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God (Ephesians 2:10).
5. According to the Book of Mormon, about 600 years before Christ, a Nephite prophet predicted that "many plain and precious parts" (1 Nephi 13:26-28) would be removed from the Bible. In contrast, from the Bible it is clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus himself constantly quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed full confidence in their completeness and accurate transmission as they had survived down to His time. Jesus declared that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31; see also Matthew 5:18), and promised His disciples who were to pen the New Testament that the Holy Ghost "shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26); Jesus further promised the apostles that they would "bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16). These promises clearly imply that the fruit of the apostles — the New Testament Scriptures and the Christian church — would endure.
18 A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife.
7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram’s cattle and the herdmen of Lot’s cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.
8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.
12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.
3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.
25 He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife: but he that putteth his trust in the LORD shall be made fat.
22 An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
21 And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice.
When I was but a wee baby, we lived next door to an Adventist family. One afternoon, my mom was cooking on the grill in the back yard when the kids peered through the fence.
"Whatcha cookin?"
"Hot dogs."
The kids ran back to the house, screaming "they eat DOGS!"
In the 4th and 5th grade, my best friend was Tony. I would walk to his house after school, then call my mom and ask if I could go to Tony’s — calling, you understand, from Tony’s. Occasionally, but not that often, the answer was no, and I had to walk back home.
One day, as we were walking home, Tony told me he was Jewish. He had a look in his eyes like this was some confession that would cause me not to want to be his friend any more. At that age, I didn’t know much about Judaism, so I asked, “that means you believe in God but not in Jesus, right?” He nodded nervously. “Okay.” The subject never came up again. Well, at least until he had to explain Chanukkah to me.
It has as much affect on me as the book of Mormon.
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