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Division Central: A Look a Mormon Splinter Groups
Tektonics ^ | J. P. Holding

Posted on 03/31/2008 10:33:52 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

If a Mormon ever points to divisions within mainstream Christendom for apologetic purposes, as a complaint against Christian unity, my usual response is: "Just wait. Mormonism is only 250 years old. You'll have plenty of your own when you get to be 2050."

In fact you need not even wait that long. We have recently acquired a book titled Divergent Paths of Restoration by one Steven Shields which provides what appears to be an exhuastive catalog of Mormon schismatic movements. (You can still buy it here, in fact.)

Let us be clear about our intent: We are not striving, as Mormon apologists themselves do, to ascribe some negative meaning to the presence of schisms in the Mormon church. On the contrary, we are making the point that Mormon apologetic appeals to divisions within mainstream Christendom -- as support for claims of apostasy, or of a need for prophgetic authority, or whatever -- are themselves subject to be turned around upon Mormonism.

With that, we offer now a listing (and limited comments upon) Shields' reports of Mormon "divergent paths". Many of these vary in doctrine; some hold the same basic doctines as another except for one or two points, or vary in practice. In this respect the LDs Church is as much a mirror of the mainstream Christian church.


  1. Wyam Clark's Pure Church of Christ -- led 5 others into a secession from the main church, claiming to be a prophet. Had 2-3 meetings before disbanding.
  2. John Noah -- claimed to be a prophet; focus on issues of dress.
  3. Hoton's Independent Church -- denounced Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon; movement self-destructed when he and his bishop had disagreements.
  4. Warren Parrish's Church of Christ -- claimed that Smith had strayed from the Gospel; Parrish took 3 of 12 members of the apostles' group with him as well as a number of other highly-ranked persons. It claimed to own the Kirtland Temple, and wanted to renounce Smith and the Book of Mormon.
  5. Isaac's Russell's Alston Church -- led a group that desired to remain in Missouri. Russell claimed to have had revelations that the group should stay, and concerning missionary activity.
  6. George Hinckle's The Bride the Lamb's Wife
  7. Oliver Olney -- claimed to be set apart as a prophet and denied certain Mormon doctrines. Not known to have gathered any followers.
  8. Francis Bishop's Church of Jesus Christ -- one of the original Seventy, claimed the Melchizedek priesthood. After his death his followers joined the RLDS.
  9. Law, Foster and Higbee's True Church of Jesus Christ -- founded by several LDS leaders in opposition to the practice of plural marriage.
  10. Sidney Rigdon's Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion -- formerly a confidant of Smith, excommunicated by Brigham Young, but still gained a considerable following which dissolved after his death.
  11. John Page -- former member of the Twelve under Smith' excommunicated by Young. May not have organized a formal church but did have a following.
  12. James Strang's Strangites -- produced a letter allegedly by Smith, appointing Strang his prophetic successor; also claimed to have had an angelic vision confirming his position. Persuaded many prominent leaders to follow him; his movement moved to Wisconsin and was successful until driven into the ground by persecution. Strang's movement was Sabbatarian and offered animal sacrifices. They still exist; Strang also claimed to translate golden plates and according to a reader the presence of chiasmus is used to authenticate his work.
  13. Aaron Smith's Church of Christ -- a short-lived splinter group in Strang's group
  14. McLellin and Whitmer's Church of Christ
  15. George Miller -- led a small group to Texas, out of Young's group heading to Utah. Later joined Strang's group.
  16. Charles Thompson's Congregation of Jehovah's Presybtery of Zion -- after leaving the main group for Strang's, was later "commanded" by God to organize educational and religious groups. Claimed the main LDS church had been rejected by God on Smith's death.
  17. William Smith's Church of Jesus Christ -- brother of Joseph and member of the Twelve; split off when Young and he could not agree. After a brief tour with the Strangites, started his own church, which later teamed with Lyman Wright's group and finally dissolved. Smith became a member of the RLDS.
  18. James Brewster's Church of Christ -- a 10 year old boy who claimed to have been authorized by Moroni to write a book. Brewster continued to write books and eventually started his own church, as Joseph Smith's had departed from the truth. The movement split apart a few years later.
  19. Lorenzo Oatman -- set himself up as a prophet splitting from Brewster's movement.
  20. Austin Cowles -- formed a group split off from Brewster's as a protest to a matter of technical organization.
  21. Increase M. Van Dusen -- followed Strang first, then claimed revelations of his own and published material exposing temple ceremonies. It is not known whether he actually organized a church.
  22. Jacob Syrfritt's The Bride, The Lamb's Wife -- after spliting off to join the Strangites, claimed a revelation that he was to succeed William Smith as the head of his church.
  23. Arnold Potter -- missionary to Australia who claimed revelations that he was to lead the LDS church. Later recorded to have had some followers in Council Bluffs.
  24. Alpheus Cutler's Church of Jesus Christ -- stayed behind with some followers when the LDS left Nauvoo; claimed based on revelations that he was to reorganize the church. This movement, though small (32 members by Shields' count), still exists today.
  25. RLDS -- perhaps the most prominent schism, led by Joseph Smith III.
  26. George Hickenlooper -- dissenter from the Jehovah's Presbytery
  27. Church of Christ, Temple Lot -- a group of LDS in bought a lot for a Temple in Independence, Missouri, they remain viable today with about 3000 members.
  28. Walter Gibson's Church of Jesus Christ -- started his own faction while on a mission on Hawaii.
  29. Joseph Morris' Church of the First Born -- self-claimed prophet who gathered as many as 500 followers; claimed Brigham Young taught false doctrine and that he had been commanded to organize the church again. Made several false eschatological predictions and claimed to be Moses reincarnate.
  30. William Bicketrton's Church of Christ -- claimed prophetic authority to organize a church in Pennsylvania; still functioning today with about 6000 members.
  31. George Adams' Church of the Messiah -- first a Mormon, then a Strangite, later claimed to have been commanded by God to journey to Palestine to start a colony, which failed.
  32. William Davies -- member of the Morrisites who claimed a revelation that he was to iunaugurate the new millenium and set up headquarters in Walla Walla. Claimed to be Michael the archangel and that his son was Jesus Christ reincarnate.
  33. William Godbe's Church of Zion -- claimed revelations teaching free enterprise, as a response to a merchant's association organized by Brigham Young.
  34. Barnet Giles -- claimed the LDS church had been rejected at the time of Smith's death because Young was not a true prophet and a temple had not yet been built.
  35. David Whitmer's Church of Christ -- original Book of Mormon "witness" who failed in a bid for church president and some yeras later started his own church.
  36. George Dove's Church of the First Born -- composed of remnants of Morrisites who followed this claimed prophet.
  37. The Priesthood Groups -- fundamentalists who continued practicing polygamy even after the church as a whole stopped it, and also kept the Adam-God doctrine.
  38. James Brighouse -- claimed Young was a false prophet and that the LDS were reincarnations of the people who had done the Jewish Exodus.
  39. John Koyle -- claimed revelations from Moroni directing him to treasures hidden in a mine. Started his own fellowship to finance the venture.
  40. Nathaniel Baldwin -- led a group interested in preaching to the Indians in the belief that they would turn white. Also practiced polygamy.
  41. Samuel Eastman -- claimed to be the "One Mighty and Strong" who would clean up the church and conferred a priesthood upon himself.
  42. John Clark -- claimed prophet who advocated the restoration or polygamy and said he was the "most literal descendant of Jesus Christ" on earth.
  43. Hannah Sorenso -- started own faction advocating vegetarianism and practicing glossolia and prophecy.
  44. Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ -- splinter group created over disagreement about the Millenium.
  45. Primitive Church of Jesus Christ -- splinter from Bickerton's group.
  46. Richard Evans' Church of the Christian Brotherhood -- splinter from the RLDS that moved to Canada.
  47. Moses Gudmundsen -- claimed prophet who taught that men could abaondon prior wives for new ones.
  48. John Zahnd's Church of Christ, Order of Zion -- splinter from RLDS that advocated communal living.
  49. Thomas Williams' Church of Jesus Christ -- RLDS splinter that came of dissatisfaction with RLDS administrative policy.
  50. Frank Wipper's Church of Christ Independent-Informal -- splinter from Temple Lot group.
  51. Paul Feil -- claimed LDS priesthood had become corrupt and that he was a messenger of a new covenant.
  52. Otto Fetting's Church of Christ -- Temple Lot splinter; claimed revelations from John the Baptist to build a temple in Independence and taught a doctrine of re-baptism.
  53. E. J. Trapp's Church of Christ -- started new group promoting a "one-person godhead" thesis.
  54. Davis County Co-Op Society -- communal, polygamist movement alleged to have specific divine authority to exist.
  55. Church of Christ (Restored) -- split from Fetting's group.
  56. Long and Nerren's Church of Christ -- split from Temple Lot.
  57. Church if Jesus Christ, Third Convention -- split from Mexican LDS fellowship for political reasons.
  58. J. H. Sherwood's Church of Jesus Christ of Israel -- Sherwood claimed a right to a bishopric and was declined; he thereafter condemned the priesthood for failure to recognize his claim.
  59. Margarito Bautista's Church of Jesus Christ -- advocated return to polygamy.
  60. W. A. Draves' Church of Christ with the Elijah Message -- offshoot of Fetting's movement; still exists today.
  61. Martin Glendenning's Order of Aaron -- claimed his Scottish family was the real possessor of the priesthood.
  62. Pauline Hancock's Church of Christ -- offshoot of Temple Lot movement. Uses the Bible only and rejects the Book of Mormon.
  63. Marl Kilgore's Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi
  64. Clyde Fletcher's Church of Jesus Christ -- offshoot of Cutler's movement. Had only 2 members in 1975.
  65. Theron Drew's Church of Jesus Christ -- offshoot first from Strangites, then from Kilgore's movement. Consists mainly of the Drew family.
  66. Joel LeBaron's Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times -- claimed special priesthood authority.
  67. Ross LeBaron's Church of the First Born -- Joel's brother; claimed it was he who had received the priesthood authority.
  68. John Leabo's New American's Mount Zion -- began a move to develop Antarctica and believes in reincarnation.
  69. United Outcasts of Israel -- organized by a descendant of Parley Pratt who broke off from Joel LeBaron. Mostly economic in association.
  70. William Conway's Perfected Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter-day Saints -- Conway claimed to be host to Moroni, Joseph Smith Jr., and others and set up a church among Native Americans; teaches polygamy and claims that one Mulek 2000 years ago designated the site of Los Angeles sacred.
  71. E. E. Long's Church of Christ -- still had 20 members at Shields' writing.
  72. Noel Pratt's American Indian Restoration Enterprises -- also focussed on restoring the Indians/Lamanites.
  73. Bruce David Longo -- claimed to receive revelation, and that Joseph Smith had been allowed to die to atone for his sins.
  74. Sherman Russell Lloyd's LDS Scripture Researchers -- claimed Joseph Smith, Jr. jad returned to earth and that the LDS church had apostasized.
  75. David Desmond's United Order of the Family of Christ -- equivalent in Mormonism of the Metropolitan Communiy Church (geared towards homosexuals)
  76. David Roberts' True Church of Jesus Christ -- claimed to be prophetic successor to Smith and Strang. Considers all other Mormon churches apostate. Gathered as many as 11,000 members.
  77. Barney Fuller's World Redemption -- organized to counter liberalism in the RLDS. Fuller later started the New Jerusalem Church of Christ.
  78. Stanley King's Church of Jesus Christ Restored -- offshoot of RLDS which claims they are the new "chosen church".
  79. F. Ellwood Russell's Restored Church of Jesus Christ -- claims to have been called by God to restore the priesthood.
  80. N. S. Park's Latter Day Saints Church -- claims to have new authorized Scripture and that Christ will return to Park's home.
  81. Ervil LeBaron's Church of the Lamb -- splinter from Joel LeBaron's church; dedicated to removing false prophets.
  82. Kathryn Carter's New Jerusalem Group -- claims her son is the fulfillment of Rev. 12:5 and the "rod of iron" of Mormon scriptures.
  83. Nerren and Hall's Church of Christ at Zion's Retreat -- offshoot of Nerren and Long's group
  84. Nerren and Gayman's Church of Israel -- white supremacist group.
  85. Miltenberg and Braun's Watchmen on the Towers of Latter Day Israel -- calls for retunr to original Mormonism of Smith's day
  86. Alexander Joseph's Church of Jesus Christ of Solemn Assembly -- polygamist group.
  87. John Bryant's Church of Christ (Patriarchal) -- claimed visit from the apostle John ordering him to establish an "Order of the Ancients" , a group that would act as spokesmen for translated beings. Polygamist.
  88. Daniel Rogers' Church of Christ with the Elijah Message -- breakoff from Draves' group.
  89. Ernest Strack -- polygamist.
  90. Gerald Peterson's Christ's Church -- considers the main Mormon church apostate; considers the allowing of African-Americans into the temple to be the 'final act of apostasy' polluting the temple.
  91. Alexander Caffiaux's Holy Church of Jesus Christ -- French Strangite offshoot
  92. Eugene Walton's Restored Church of Jesus Christ -- offshoot of Fuller's movement
  93. Aryan Christian Church -- mixes Mormonism and Naziism.
  94. Forrest Toney's True Church of Jesus Christ -- claims to be Elijah, Lamb of God and Savior.
  95. Zion's First International Church -- formed in opposition to the LDS church's opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment
  96. Franklin Coleman's Free Will Mormon Church
  97. Peyote Way Church of God -- uses peyote in its sacraments



TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: lds; mormon; mormonism; mormons

1 posted on 03/31/2008 10:33:53 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
The Church of the First Born factions in the quite interesting foregoing list are not exactly breakaway Mormons ~ although even they may think they are.

Although the LDS and other major Mormon groups use the "First Born" terminology for their own purposes, the Church of the First Born can be traced back to whaling stations on the East Coast and Gulf of Mexico. One such group was founded in 1702 near what is now Brownsville, TX.

Most members were Scandinavian seamen.

The Peyote Way bunch (also known as Church of the First Born) reflects several bits of history ~ the discovery of peyote by white folks (First Borners) on Indian reservations, and the fact no one was interested in enforcing the laws regarding peyote use.

All of these groups have some link to the earliest Whaling station folks, yet there are First Born groups that were never part of any of the Mormon factions, yet, they are all linked. One clue is to find a First Born church (sometimes called Faith Assembly ) and a nearby town or area named something Christmasy ~ e.g. Christmas Tree, North Pole, Santa Claus, Reindeer, Deer Park, and so forth. Many of the various First Born congregations reject the use of doctors except to set bones.

For a variety of reasons (which are little understood as yet) the LDS founded by Smith managed to absorb a number of independent First Born congregations. This usually led to later serious doctrinal disputes, even violence, particularly if they got excommunicated. Smith's death, the Morrisite War, the Mountain Meadow Massacre are of a piece in what amounted to a small war between the First Born and the Mormons.

The longest name I've ever found for a First Born group was "The Apostolic, Charismatic Church of the First Born in the Fullness of Time Teaching Christ's Commandments Army Cross Training". They recruit traveling carnival shows.

That one flopped right over into the Tony and Susan Alamo bailiwick ~ they're the folks with the "Army Cross Training". Due to their anti-Catholic positions they've been branded a "hate group" or "hate cult" more recently. No doubt the Mormons are sighing a breath of relief about that group which is no longer after them but after the far larger (but now #2) RC church.

2 posted on 03/31/2008 11:01:31 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Just wait. Mormonism is only 250 years old, my family joined up in 1822, couple of years short.
3 posted on 03/31/2008 12:03:52 PM PDT by Little Bill (Welcome to the Newly Socialist State of New Hampshire)
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To: Alex Murphy; greyfoxx39; Elsie; Godzilla; MHGinTN

BTTT


4 posted on 03/31/2008 3:02:57 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Little Bill
I'm trying to figure out the 250 years myself. 2008 - 250 = 1758, right?

COTFB had already been in America 56 years by then, but no Mormons at that time.

5 posted on 03/31/2008 3:31:41 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Alex Murphy
Interesting post. I have read about some LDS splinter groups on Wikipedia but hadn;t found a basic list. on wiki you have to click betwen them and it is easy to get lost which one you are on.

Some are large like the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) which unfortunately is becoming more liberal and following that trend which also affects some other denominations. Some are very small. A missionary in our mission met some Strangite Mormons of which there are only 200 or so left.

Schisms in groups and Doctrines are found starting in the NT shortly after the ascension of Christ. A huge portion of Paul's letters are intended to correct some of the splintering that was occuring. The Book of Mormon is replete with groups that splintered away Doctrinally. Some return and some don't.

6 posted on 03/31/2008 5:39:26 PM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Alex Murphy

I believe the first Mormon offshoots began even before Joseph Smith’s death. I don’t remember the exact details but some very higher ups in the sect’s heirarchy objected enough over Smith’s revealation of “Celestial Marriage” that they left and formed their own congregations.


7 posted on 03/31/2008 9:05:38 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Thanks for reminding us, that after Jesus restarted His Church on the earth, with the help of Joseph Smith, many men have done the same things that changed the Church He started the first time, some 2000 years ago.


8 posted on 03/31/2008 10:57:24 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Alex Murphy

In all fairness, though I believe the various flavor of Mormons are gravely deceived, splintering is hardly the main evidence of Joseph Smith’s falsehood. It happens in every religious movement. Even the true Church had to fight against heresy almost from the beginning.


9 posted on 04/01/2008 12:33:16 AM PDT by beachdweller
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To: fproy2222; greyfoxx39; Tennessee Nana
Thanks for reminding us, that after Joseph Smith gave us the RESTORED Gospel; that it lacked to power to even hold MORMONS together: let alone any power to unite christianity!
10 posted on 04/01/2008 6:45:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Thanks for reminding us, that after Joseph Smith gave us the RESTORED Gospel; that it lacked to power to even hold MORMONS together: let alone any power to unite Christianity!
_________________________________________________

But Elsie....

The false prophet Joseph Smith said that he was greater than Jesuys and tyhat he HAD kept ALL his mormons and they still followed him while Jesus lost His...

Does this mean that the false prophet Joseph Smith was WRONG ????????????

Oooooooo Woe is the mormons....

And we know that Jesus kept His original church from the time of His ministry here on Earth until NOW, 2008...and His is a continual Church...and has never needed restoring cause it was never lost..

Even Hell itself could not stop the Church of Christ...

..upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18


11 posted on 04/01/2008 7:16:50 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: fproy2222

Jesus restarted His Church on the earth, with the help of Joseph Smith
__________________________________________________

Fred, Jesus is not puny...

He needs the help of no mere MAN

Jesus is God...

God is quite capable of doing things for himself...

From Job...one of the favorite Books of the Bible of the mormons..

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Job 38:2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:8 Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb?

Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed [place], and set bars and doors,

Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

Job 38:12 ¶ Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; [and] caused the dayspring to know his place;

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Job 38:14 It is turned as clay [to] the seal; and they stand as a garment.

Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

Job 38:19 ¶ Where [is] the way [where] light dwelleth? and [as for] darkness, where [is] the place thereof,

Job 38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths [to] the house thereof?

Job 38:21 Knowest thou [it], because thou wast then born? or [because] the number of thy days [is] great?

Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

Job 38:24 By what way is the light parted, [which] scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

Job 38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, [where] no man [is; on] the wilderness, wherein [there is] no man;

Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste [ground]; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

Job 38:30 The waters are hid as [with] a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we [are]?

Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

Job 38:38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

Job 38:39 ¶ Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

Job 38:40 When they couch in [their] dens, [and] abide in the covert to lie in wait?

Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? [or] canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

Job 39:2 Canst thou number the months [that] they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

Job 39:3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.

Job 39:4 Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.

Job 39:5 Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?

Job 39:6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.

Job 39:7 He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.

Job 39:8 The range of the mountains [is] his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.

Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

Job 39:11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength [is] great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?

Job 39:12 Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather [it into] thy barn?

Job 39:13 [Gavest thou] the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?

Job 39:14 Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,

Job 39:15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.

Job 39:16 She is hardened against her young ones, as though [they were] not hers: her labour is in vain without fear;

Job 39:17 Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.

Job 39:18 What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider.

Job 39:19 Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?

Job 39:20 Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils [is] terrible.

Job 39:21 He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in [his] strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.

Job 39:22 He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.

Job 39:23 The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.

Job 39:24 He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that [it is] the sound of the trumpet.

Job 39:25 He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

Job 39:26 Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, [and] stretch her wings toward the south?

Job 39:27 Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?

Job 39:28 She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.

Job 39:29 From thence she seeketh the prey, [and] her eyes behold afar off.

Job 39:30 Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain [are], there [is] she.

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.


12 posted on 04/01/2008 7:33:50 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
Posted by Tennessee Nana to fproy2222
On Religion 04/01/2008 8:33:50 PM MDT · 12 of 12

Jesus restarted His Church on the earth, with the help of Joseph Smith
__________________________________________________

Fred, Jesus is not puny...

He needs the help of no mere MAN

Jesus is God...

God is quite capable of doing things for himself...

++++++++++++++++

I Did not say he needed to, I just said he did, like He used people about 2000 years ago.

13 posted on 04/01/2008 8:17:50 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222

Jesus restarted His Church on the earth, with the help of Joseph Smith
__________________________________________________

Fred, Jesus is not puny...

He needs the help of no mere MAN

Jesus is God...

God is quite capable of doing things for himself...

++++++++++++++++

I Did not say he needed to, I just said he did, like He used people about 2000 years ago.
_______________________________________________

Fred...

The Church that Jesus built 2,000 was not like a car...

It did not break down and need to be “restarted”

Jesus is God and when God builds something it is built GOD TOUGH...


14 posted on 04/01/2008 8:43:44 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
The Church that Jesus built 2,000 was not like a car...

It did not break down and need to be “restarted”

Jesus is God and when God builds something it is built GOD TOUGH...
+++++++++++++++++++++++

So TOUGH, that He has allowed, what is it now, about 3000 people changes with hundreds of unrelated groups.

All I am saying is that after God allowed man to degrade His Church, He decided it was time to redo what He has let man degrade.

Of course I have talked to people who say that since God controls everything, He choose to have the confusion of religion, for His own pleasure. Do you also think like this?

15 posted on 04/02/2008 9:40:37 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222
Of course I have talked to people who say that since God controls everything, He choose to have the confusion of religion, for His own pleasure. Do you also think like this?


 

 
 

And here we have a #13

 

  
                       Standard LDS responses to data put to them:
 

Shorthand

Reference:

1. How you interpret it is wrong...

(Need a source)

2. You are too ignorant to really understand it because you are not a member....

(Need a source)

3. You're not qualified to judge because you're no LONGER a member...

(Need a source)

4. You are just a bigot for bringing the whole ugly truth to light ...

(Need a source)

5. So’s yer Mama!

(Need a source)

6. Laugh it all off and post some silly image.

(Need a source)

7. Jump down the rabbit hole; Alice!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=683#683

8. Bait & Switch

(Need a source)

9. The OTHER 'half' of the truth is what we are avoiding.

(Need a source)

10. "I Know It When I See It"

(Need a source)

11. Hand waving...

(Need a source)

12. YOU play defense for a while.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=944#944

13. HEE Hee hee... let's get the Calvinists and the Armenians fighting!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1994515/posts?page=15#15

14. GREAT FUN! Let's get the Catholics and the Protestants fighting!

(Need a source)

15. Huh? Did you say something?

(Need a source)

16. If I repeat this enough times some folks will be fooled into thinking it's true.

(Need a source)

17. Playing dumb.

(Need a source)

18. Refusing to answer because your ATTITUDE offends them.

(Need a source)

19. (Let's see if they'll fall for the 'Defend a freak' ploy.)

(Need a source)

20. And the MOST used...  IGNORE what they posted and answer the question that SHOULD have been asked.

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8


16 posted on 04/02/2008 10:13:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

And here we have a #13


Standard LDS responses to data put to them:

Shorthand

+++++++++++++++++

You have a nasty habit of using stuff like this to put down and avoid that which is important and/or true.


17 posted on 04/02/2008 10:25:38 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222
You have a nasty habit of using stuff like this to put down and avoid that which is important and/or true.

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal. Attributing motives is a form of "making it personal."
18 posted on 04/02/2008 10:27:53 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: muawiyah

Beats the hell out of me, My G x Grandfather was born in Upstate NY in 1745, no Mormons, his Grandson was the First Mormon in my family, born 1780, still no Mormon’s. He had 16 kids most of whom were not Mormon.


19 posted on 04/02/2008 3:07:23 PM PDT by Little Bill (Welcome to the Newly Socialist State of New Hampshire)
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To: Religion Moderator

would “discredit the poster and avoid” be proper?


20 posted on 04/03/2008 12:36:22 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222
No. Attributing motives is a type of mind reading and therefore, "making it personal."

Your point could have been made academic by changing one word as follows:

personal: You have a nasty habit of using stuff like this to put down and avoid that which is important and/or true.

academic: People have a nasty habit of using stuff like this to put down and avoid that which is important and/or true.


21 posted on 04/03/2008 6:19:42 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: fproy2222

God allowed man to degrade His Church, He decided it was time to redo what He has let man degrade.
_______________________________________________

Some points here Fred...

1. Your god must be a wimp if mere man can overpower and destroy his structures...while he just stands back and whines...

2. How was your feeble god able to re-erect something that the powerful MAN has pulled down ???

3. Man will be able to degrade and destroy the church again....since he knowns how and he was so successful the first time...and apparently your god cant stop him from doing so...


22 posted on 04/03/2008 8:41:00 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: fproy2222

since God controls everything, He choose to have the confusion of religion, for His own pleasure. Do you also think like this?
________________________________________

Fred read the Bible for yourself

The Tower of Babel ... Genesis 11:9

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Genesis 11:1-9


23 posted on 04/03/2008 9:05:15 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Religion Moderator

thank you


24 posted on 04/03/2008 10:07:43 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Elsie

And here we have a #13


Standard LDS responses to data put to them:
+++++++++++++++++++++

I have seen this type of posting used before, and it has the effect of turning the conversation away from what the original poster felt was important.


25 posted on 04/03/2008 10:12:42 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Tennessee Nana

since God controls everything, He choose to have the confusion of religion, for His own pleasure. Do you also think like this?
________________________________________

Fred read the Bible for yourself

The Tower of Babel ... Genesis 11:9

+++++++++++++++++++++++

So you are saying that God, who controls everything, has for his own pleasure, decided He wanted a bunch of little conflicting religions, instead of one true religion.


26 posted on 04/03/2008 10:28:37 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222

So you are saying that God, who controls everything, has for his own pleasure, decided He wanted a bunch of little conflicting religions, instead of one true religion.
_______________________________________________

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16


27 posted on 04/03/2008 10:40:57 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
So you are saying that God, who controls everything, has for his own pleasure, decided He wanted a bunch of little conflicting religions, instead of one true religion.
_______________________________________________

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

+++++++++++++++++++++

Now you seem to be changing what you are saying.

Now,you seem to be saying, we have to do the works of believing before God will save us.

28 posted on 04/03/2008 11:10:31 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222
I have seen this type of posting used before, and it has the effect of turning the conversation away from what the original poster felt was important.

Yup.

29 posted on 04/04/2008 7:22:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe; Tennessee Nana; Elsie; colorcountry; restornu; fproy2222
BTTT

I wonder if all members of these various sects had a burning in the bosom®?

30 posted on 06/04/2008 6:44:18 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Alex Murphy
"Just wait. Mormonism is only 250 178 years old

....the article is only off by 72 years!

31 posted on 06/04/2008 7:42:43 AM PDT by restornu ( How Sweet it is FR Headers Edits Outs All of The BS on My Comment Page; Out of Sight, Out of Mind!:)
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To: restornu

And does that somehow make the number of splinter groups more acceptable?


32 posted on 06/04/2008 7:46:14 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe; Tennessee Nana; Elsie; colorcountry; restornu; fproy2222
I wonder if all members of these various sects had a burning in the bosom®?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

I do not know.

Do all the Christian denomination, and sects, and groups get there understanding and teachings of God and Christ and salvation from the same Bible?

33 posted on 06/04/2008 12:08:43 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe; Tennessee Nana; Elsie; colorcountry; restornu

Do all the Christian denomination, and sects, and groups get there understanding and teachings of God and Christ and salvation from the same Bible?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Are they all correct in your way of thinking?


34 posted on 06/04/2008 12:12:15 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222

Yup


35 posted on 06/04/2008 12:17:03 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: fproy2222

***Are they all correct in your way of thinking?***

From the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter XXV:

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan**.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]

[8] ROM 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. REV 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

[9] (REV 2-3 throughout) 1CO 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.

[10] 1CO 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. MAT 13:24-30, 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.

[11] REV 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. ROM 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

[12] MAT 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. PSA 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. 102:28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

** i.e. Certain churches that deny the Trinity.


36 posted on 06/04/2008 12:23:44 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Rameumptom

Even in Jesus time they had schisms it is nothing new!

The rebellious souls always want to revise the program


37 posted on 06/04/2008 12:35:42 PM PDT by restornu ( How Sweet it is FR Headers Edits Outs All of The BS on My Comment Page; Out of Sight, Out of Mind!:)
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To: Gamecock

** i.e. Certain churches that deny the Trinity.

+++++++++++++++++

So, you are saying that if a Church does not believe in the Trinity, you are a false church?


38 posted on 06/04/2008 12:46:32 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222

So you are saying that if a Church does not believe in the Trinity you are a false church?

****

Roy, It only matter what the Father and only begotten Son of the Heavenly Father, as well as the Holy Ghost witness too!


39 posted on 06/04/2008 1:11:58 PM PDT by restornu ( How Sweet it is FR Headers Edits Outs All of The BS on My Comment Page; Out of Sight, Out of Mind!:)
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To: fproy2222

***if a Church does not believe in the Trinity, you are a false church?***

Not me, the church that denies the Trinity.


40 posted on 06/04/2008 10:45:04 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: restornu; fproy2222
The Biblical Trinity, as seen below, and not some Mormon concoction:
41 posted on 06/04/2008 10:47:34 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Gamecock
pretty picture
42 posted on 06/05/2008 12:22:18 AM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Gamecock
That image sure is good example for it shows the immaturity of your understanding!

I pray someday you are able to receive a witness by the power of the Holy Spirit!

43 posted on 06/05/2008 12:23:14 AM PDT by restornu ( How Sweet it is FR Headers Edits Outs All of The BS on My Comment Page; Out of Sight, Out of Mind!:)
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To: Gamecock

See how far Your “Tradition of Man Church” will take you in the resurrection!~:)


44 posted on 06/05/2008 12:25:26 AM PDT by restornu ( How Sweet it is FR Headers Edits Outs All of The BS on My Comment Page; Out of Sight, Out of Mind!:)
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