Skip to comments.What old-guard feminists get wrong about Catholics
Posted on 04/28/2008 6:33:10 AM PDT by NYer
In the run-up to Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the United States, there was a tremendous display of unseriousness at the National Press Club, followed by a sacrilege at a nearby Washington, D.C., church.
A misguided group called the Women's Ordination Conference held a protest – a press conference and an all-woman "Mass" at a local Methodist church. The group, as the name suggests, wants to see "the ordination of women as priests, deacons and bishops." Sadly, the group doesn't understand women or the Catholic Church.
In a prepared statement, WOC executive director Aisha Taylor declared:
"The failure to ordain women is a blatant manifestation of sexism in the church that has wider repercussions in the world.
"In the three years of his papacy, Pope Benedict XVI has made a few encouraging statements about women, but he has done nothing that suggests willingness to open the discussion on women's ordination. That's why for his 81st birthday, we are offering the pope a present: the gift of women, their leadership, talents, experiences and unique perspectives."
The group trailed the popemobile to papal events with a billboard truck that asked: "Pope Benedict, How long must women wait for equality? Ordain Catholic Women."
As they are stuck on their version of "equality," the fundamental problem with the group and its message is that whatever Benedict says or does will not be enough for them. They are not open to listening, but to dictating an unworkable agenda. If they were open to it, they would hear and see the Roman Catholic Church's embrace and celebration of women. Women will not be priests, but they will always be an essential part of the Church.
(Excerpt) Read more at dallasnews.com ...
I want it all
I want it all
I want it all
And I want it now.
What a bunch of doofuses.
There is simply no good reason women should not be eligible for the priesthood. I am Catholic, and most of the Catholics I know agree with me, but also agree that the Church is so behind on this issue, we’re not likely to see a remedy in our lifetimes.
Are you serious or joking? If you’re serious, then why is your name “TraditionalistMommy”?
Serious. And I am mostly a traditionalist. But this is absurd, especially in light of the priest shortage, so many young people moving away from the Church. It’s long past time to come out of the dark ages on this issue. We are shooting ourselves in the foot.
Jesus did not select women to be his apostles, he chose men. And if it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me. How dare you go against the will of the Lord!
2) In my own personal opinion, the best practical argument against ordaining women is to be found in the character of the women most loudly clamouring for ordination. They appear to see the priesthood exclusively in terms of power and authority, rather than service and sacrifice.
Its an APOSTOLIC church.
The will of the Lord? If Christ were preaching today, you really think he would advocate treating women, or anyone, as second class citizens? His treatment of women and other subjugated people was remarkably advanced in its time. Why would you think it would be so backward now?
That being said, your language is ripped right out of the playbook of the women's ordination movement. You may claim to be a "traditionalist," but, at least on this issue, you've exposed yourself as anything but.
Currently, Islam is on the same side as the feminists -
their common enemy is the existence and dominance of Western Culture.
If character is the issue, you’re standing on very shaky ground, considering the shocking number of male priests who have sexually abused CHILDREN in recent decades. Do you think they saw the priesthood in terms of service and sacrifice?
Your sweeping generalization about women you see as “clamouring for ordination” is especially weak in this context.
If women were eligible, then perhaps we would have sufficient qualified, decent applicants for the priesthood to actually achieve a majority of priests interested in service and sacrifice. At the moment, it’s slim pickin’s.
The Bible is pretty clear on the roles that the sexes were created with.
It’s not about 1st class vs 2nd class, it’s about proper role fulfillment.
When you attempt to use something, anything, for other than its intended purpose, something is going to break.
I’m not concerned with how you label me. Have at it.
Your metaphor above is interesting, if you insist on being literal about it. You have to be fairly open to homosexuality to play that one out.
The Bible states clearly that women shouldn’t be allowed to speak in church. The Catholic Church ignores this rule. Why?
A traditionalist understands the Church is not a democracy, has never been a democracy, and never will be a democracy. If that is something you can’t accept, there are many alternative Christian sects available that will welcome and celebrate your view of equality.
What Christ preached two thousand years ago would be the same today. Christ does not change. He is always correct.
Can you be more specific?
Actually, I'm standing on very solid ground ... the attitude of those who most loudly clamour for female ordination closely mirrors (IMHO) that of those men who have of late behaved most disgracefully in the priesthood.
I’d just prefer they didn’t vote.
Only half kidding.
We didn’t get all this unconstitutional socialist crap until the 19th was passed,
and women ARE more inclined to vote for “take care of me” instead of “leave me alone to be free” policies.
It’s not a democracy, you’re right. That’s one of the reasons the Catholic Church in the United States is dying. It’s a kind of authority not embraced in our society, for better or worse.
I’m happy in my parish for the moment, and still have hope for my Church, a seriously flawed entity (surely we can all agree on that one), but one full of many good people.
The Catholic Church has adapted to society throughout its history, though often at a slow pace. If you think otherwise, you’re kidding yourself.
Your humble opinion, IMHO, is baseless, bigoted nonsense.
Hmm...take away the votes of half the population so your side has a better chance of winning...
That doesn’t sound like democracy to me.
I’d prefer not. I think you can figure it out.
No, explain it. Otherwise, it’s a baseless accusation.
If you take the Bridegroom/Bride metaphor so literally that you really think it’s required that someone representing the “Bridegroom” have male genitalia, then how do you explain your role as the “Bride” if you also have male genitalia?
You take it literally when it suits you, poetically when it doesn’t.
Religious life? Old, anti-traditional orders are indeed dying ... whilst new, orthodox orders are thriving. But MSM won't tell you that.
Vocations to the priesthood? Easy to find ... just look for dioceses where the Bishop hasn't fallen for the least-common-denominator "relevance" that the proponents of democracy in the Church have been clamouring for these last 40 years.
Overflowing Parishes? Easy to find. You'll usually find an orthodox, faithful, courageous, self-sacrificing priest as Pastor.
My opinion here may or may not be bigoted, but it is securely based on Scripture, Tradition, and my observations of the Church for a few decades.
From the essay:
We men may often make very bad priests. That is because we are insufficiently masculine. It is no cure to call in those who are not masculine at all.
Did you not read what I said? A priest is a symbol of that relationship. I said that. Symbols have real meaning. You’re the one taking it to this absurd/bizarre homosexual component.
There is a small subset of Catholics moving toward a more fundamentalist approach. But in the real world, the sheer numbers are alarming. More and more parishes with no priests, shrinking attendance, rampant school closings. The majority of new priests are coming from other continents, and there aren’t nearly enough of them. The status quo is not working.
Thanks maryz. :-)
I think something very obvious is going right over your head, but I think it’s best to leave you be.
Look, I don’t think like you. I’m not a mind reader. Stop beating around the bush, and converse like a considerate human being.
I live in the real world. I see overflowing parishes. I see new parishes being built. I see new schools being built. I see packed seminaries.
No, I'm not in SSPX land ... not even in FSSP land. I'm in Virginia.
You want new priests? Find an orthodox bishop.
You want new religious? Find an orthodox order.
You want dying parishes, closed schools? Find a "relevant" bishop, who's trying to "give the people what they want".
Sorry, lady, you can't snow me with this stuff. I've seen too much first hand.
hmmm... sounds like you haven’t been Constitutionally educated.
I’m well aware. The metaphor, if treated literally, is rather hugely, humorously and ironically flawed, which is why it clearly isn’t meant to be treated so literally.
I’ve been working in the Catholic Church for many years. Your “real world” is a fantasy, I’m sorry to say.
You have it backward. It's the Church which is good; some of the people are seriously flawed. The topic at hand is a case in point. And if the hope you have is for democracy, it's misplaced. You should look to the myriad Protestant denominations with which you're clearly more closely aligned.
The Catholic Church has adapted to society throughout its history, though often at a slow pace. If you think otherwise, youre kidding yourself.
The Catholic Church will hardly wither and blow away because some whining feminists don't get their way. If you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.
The Catholic Church will eventually adapt, and there will be female priests, just as there are female altar servers, female eucharistic ministers, etc. People in your camp will whine and grumble as you always have. The precedent is clear, and you’re right, the Church won’t wither and blow away. It will adapt in order to survive, as it’s always done.
I'm not a Catholic. You think Jesus would have modified His Message because of the times? His treatment of women would have been the same today as it was then, because the way the Lord treated people is the way people should treat one another.
St. Charles Borromeo being full is not fantasy.
St. Gregory the Great being full is not fantasy.
Our Lady of Guadalupe (yeah, I know) being full is not fantasy.
The constant construction and expansion of new Parishes in Virginia is not fantasy.
We don't need wymynprysts. We need to more, and expanded, orthodox seminaries.
In the first place, it’s not a metaphor (which is why I used the quotes) — a metaphor is a figure of speech, and a good one can be illuminating, but it’s still only words. The priesthood is in some part a symbol, reflecting a reality deeper than language.
Thank you for making your position clear.
Good day to you.
I agree completely. Much deeper than language, which is why it is an utter failure as a justification for denying women the priesthood.
“The majority of new priests are coming from other continents,...”
Not in my archdiocese, but still, it's true, a large number are coming from other continents.
Interestingly, they're coming from places where Catholics are significantly more “conservative” in belief than most dioceses in the United States. The foreign-born priests that I've been privileged to know are far less likely, as they move into the hierarchy, to push for womynpriests than some of the folks currently in the hierarchy.
As well, the homegrown priests we have in our archdiocese are nearly all significantly more “conservative” than the previous generation.
The greatest shortages of priests are in the least orthodox dioceses.
Kind of a self-correcting problem, it seems to me.
Jesus knew his audience, and used a template people were able to understand and relate to at the time. I’ve yet to meet a Catholic priest who would tell you otherwise.
Ordination is not a right, it is not something anyone can demand, and the lack of ordination does not make anyone a "second-class citizen".
But if you're a Catholic, it should be sufficient for you that the Church's inability to ordain women was infallibly taught by Pope John Paul II. That means it will never change. Not in your lifetime, not in your children's lifetime, not 10,000 years from now.