The problem though, Joe, is that so many Catholics will TELL you that they do. My mother-in-law (bless her heart) has told me many times that she has prayed TO St. Anthony, St. Joseph, or St. so-and-so.
She doesn’t say that she is asking THEM to pray.
Also, FWIW, and with all due respect, whenever I hear Catholics (and believe me, I greatly respect my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ who are working hard in the harvest)tell me that they PRAY to the Saints, I always wonder why they have this weird list of Saints that never includes the apostles or any of the Old Testament greats like David, Moses, Abraham, or Joseph!
If I were going to ask a host of those in Heaven to pray for ME, I’d be rounding up a few of the heavy hitters like St. Paul and Joseph has always been one of my favorites.
It is confusing but let me give you the words to one of our most powerful prayers
Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
PRAY for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.
We use the words “Have Mercy on us” when we pray to God
“Pray for us” for Mary and any of the saints.
Many non-Catholic just assume and never ask.
Some, when we say what we are doing, tell us, “No, you’re praying to saints.”
It gets old.
In other words, you're being convicted by a preposition, instead of analyzing the posture taken towards the saint or angel. That's what's pertinent.
I always wonder why they have this weird list of Saints that never includes the apostles or any of the Old Testament greats like David, Moses, Abraham, or Joseph!
Because in any case, they are sharing the same Beatific Vision alongside the Apostles and OT saints. They may have lesser or greater glory, but they are an infinitely higher place than we are right now.
If I were going to ask a host of those in Heaven to pray for ME, I’d be rounding up a few of the heavy hitters like St. Paul and Joseph has always been one of my favorites.
You CAN! That's the beauty of it! :-)
Those in Heaven today, alive in Christ, are there because they have found favor in the eyes of God. They died in His Grace and live forever in Glory. Asking you to pray for me (please do) has merit, no? How much more those Saints in Heaven?
Well, you’re right and I had thought to mention it in that post; many Catholics really may think that we “pray to” saints, or at least in a sense they do. I don’t believe that you are engaging in the game of theological “gotcha”. So, I’ll just tell you these folks are misinformed, but I don’t necessarily believe they are technically participating in “idolatry”.
My own mother used to make me wince when she did the old “St. Anthony, St. Anthony, please come around, something has lost and cannot be found.” Even as a teenager, I would chide her for engaging in superstitious activity. She would then put her hand down on the checkbook, or set of keys that she had lost and pronounce with a smile and a wink at me “Thank you, Tony”. I swear that it worked.
I can only say that for my part, I have tried to educate individuals myself. Correcting it if I hear people getting it wrong and making sure that children that I teach in my catechism class understand the teaching. No one that I have ever spoken with right down to kindergarten believes that they are praying to a statue or to a stained glass window, as some strident and stupid as brick ninnies have implied.
Certainly, I would guess that almost all of the Catholics that I have discussed this with really do not consider themselves partaking in a kind of idol worship, to be honest, I really don’t think that they are. They do not place the saints before God and Jesus. The saints should be a channel by which we see God reflected in the lives of other humans.
There is a lot of what I think is basically Catholic tradition and Catholic culture involved in joining our prayers to the saints. Many converts that I know are not necessarily swept up in the practice, maybe it’s the manner in which we are raised?
As for me, it’s a part of our ancesteral tradition that I enjoy sharing with my family and my children. I have certain “patrons” with whom I have had an affinity with since I was a little boy, including St. Joseph, St. Patrick by name. St. Luke as he is the patron of artists. Therese of Lisieux and the Blessed Mother, basically because they have been very favorable intercessors. I also love the apostles, especially Peter, Andrew and Thomas, becaus ethey were so incredibly flawed and Jesus loved them despite this. I have a particular affinity for St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, as she is a teacher like myself and closely linked geographically.
Yeah, I’m not certain why folks do not link to the Old Testament? Again, I think tradition. Originally, and before the whole canonization process was developed the saints were simply considered to be those who had been martyred for the faith. There was no big tribunal and devil’s advocate, etc. If you took one for the team, you got into the pantheon, so to speak. It took a couple centuries to open up the field, hence I think the saints prior to Jesus’s birth kind of get short shrift, except maybe St. Ann and St. Joachim.
To all of this, I might add, that I also like to teach my children by the example of other non-Catholic Christians that I think are inspirational in today’s context; CS Lewis, Martin Luther King, Bethany Hamilton, David Robinson, Tony Dungy and Kurt Warner.
These are inspirational people who proclaim Jesus’s message and even help me to get a little closer to Jesus by way of their attitudes, actions, courage and love of God. Not necessarily in the big book of Roman Catholic Saints, but really, who’s in it for that?
What can I say? I’m a Caatholic. The Communion of Saints; it’s our thing. I like it and I think it’s cool to have friends in Heaven. Non-Catholic Christians should, too.
–verb (used with object)
1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
–verb (used without object)
8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.