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To: NYer
Holy straw man!

From the article... "claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself". This is not sola scriptura. If you read John 14: 15-17a "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth."

God clearly sent the Holy Spirit as a Counselor, a spirit of truth.

Which is more believable - one office holding infallibility or 400 million non-Catholic Christians who can't agree on the interpretation of Scripture all claiming "infallibility?"

Whoever claimed infallibility? As a part of the LCMS, I accept the Bible as the sole authority and measure of truth. I accept the Book of Concord as a faithful representation of that truth. The Book of Concord is not infallible. The LCMS is not infallible. The claim of infallibility is just about as ridiculous as the obscene "Throne of Peter".

Catholics are way too smug: my favorite being "It's our Bible". No! It's not your Bible. The Bible is a gift. You can try and argue that the authority of the Bible comes from the Catholic Church, but that's just silly. The authority of the Bible comes from the God in general and the Holy Spirit in particular.

Christianity isn't that complicated. The key aspects of that faith are stated in the creeds. They represent the catholic faith that all Christians share. There is a difference between "catholic" and "Catholic". Small "c" stands for universal. If you read the small "c" catholic creeds, you will find nothing about submitting to Peter or the Roman Catholic Church. I do not submit to a man, nor an institution. I submit to my God.

I know that my synod is imperfect. I know that my knowledge is imperfect. I know I am imperfect.

If you read 1 Corinthians 1 is a very interesting chapter. It talks about division in the Church. But the end of the chapter is very very telling. Let him who boasts boast in the Lord. Now tell me about the Catholic's Bible and the Catholic Infallibility. You are boasting about a man and an institution, not the Lord.

36 posted on 05/20/2008 9:09:18 AM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Tao Yin
I know that my synod is imperfect. I know that my knowledge is imperfect. I know I am imperfect.

This, combined with this...

As a part of the LCMS, I accept the Bible as the sole authority and measure of truth.

... leads one to, IMO, a fatal error. After all, if one admits that there is no perfection in one's self, or in one's church, then how can one know that one's interpretation of Scripture is perfect?

If one says, "Well I don't claim my interpretation of Scripture is perfect", then I would ask, "Then how can you know what the Bible says about topic 'X' is actually what you believe it says about topic 'X'?"

One can't know for certain, and that's the point. One could say, "Well I believe the Holy Spirit confirms it for me", but that's easy to say, and indeed, as everyone (even Catholics) must admit, we all are indeed "imperfect", and part of this imperfection is our unfortunate tendency to convince ourselves of our own "correctness", even when faced with facts to the contrary. This pride is manifested in many forms, but in Christianity, it's often disguised with the claim, "the Holy Spirit taught me that". Or, "God told me that I'm right".

Besides, even beyond the analysis above, if the Holy Spirit can guide and teach individual men truth (which I do believe He can, I just don't believe that can be used as a justification for rejecting Church authority), then why can't He guide an entire Church in the same way? After all, the Church (on Earth) is comprised of men, so, if we believe the Holy Spirit can and does teach men on an individual level, then why is it so hard to believe He would teach an entire body of men, or at least keep that body of men from making any mistake that would doom them for eternity (which is really less than actually "teaching" them something, it's just keeping them from error) That's really the ultimate question I had to ask myself, as painful as it was, when I was a separated Catholic (heretic) myself. I used to believe the Holy Spirit only taught men individually, but in reality, (and if one is rational about the question, one can see) that belief limits God.

It limits Him, so we are free to reject the painful possibility above.

45 posted on 05/20/2008 9:36:55 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Tao Yin
Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.

Precisely.

Now tell me about the Catholic's Bible and the Catholic Infallibility.

The New Testament written by His Church through the Holy Spirit, the Bible assembled by His Church, the spiritual guidance of His Vicar on Earth, who is the successor of Peter His Apostle....It's His Church, the Catholic Church. If we boast, we boast in the Lord for all the gifts He gives us through His Church.

67 posted on 05/20/2008 10:14:56 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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