Posted on 06/14/2008 8:51:54 PM PDT by magisterium
The traditional Latin Mass – effectively banned by Rome for 40 years – is to be reintroduced into every Roman Catholic parish in England and Wales, the senior Vatican cardinal in charge of Latin liturgy said at a press conference in London today.
In addition, all seminaries will be required to teach trainee priests how to say the old Mass so that they can celebrate it in all parishes.
Catholic congregations throughout the world will receive special instruction on how to appreciate the old services, formerly known as the Tridentine Rite.
(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...
I’m going to be in London in July, My Son( in the Navy assigned to the US. Embassy)goes to a Catholic Church nearby, maybe I’ll catch a Latin Mass! They live near Abbey Road. My son said he saw Jude Law walking down the street the other day. I didn’t have the heart to tell him I did not know who the heck he is!
Latin Mass to return to England and Wales
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2031038/posts
Ping!
Absolutely nothing. England and Wales are not their jurisdiction.
effectively banned by Rome for 40 years
Not banned, never banned
Trainee Priests
Here in the real world we call them seminarians.
If the newspaper is playing this fast and loose with things like this what else are they playing fast and loose with?
I think it’s huge, too - if it turns out to be true. I don’t think the Telegraph made it up, of course, but it could be that the Cardinal, who is not a native speaker of English, meant it more as a projection of what he hoped would someday occur (every parish in England will have a Gregorian Mass) than as a direct order from the Pope.
On the other hand, maybe it actually is the next step, and the Pope is going to mandate all parishes to have a Gregorian Mass within a certain period of time. IMHO, that’s the only solution that’s going to work, because the bishops are so resistant. And this would affect not only England, naturally, but the Church worldwide, including the domain of the USCCB.
One can dream...
Expect Abe Foxman to throw a conniption.
Oops! Sorry. Didn’t see it. I probably unconsciously skipped over it, because the headline looked like year-old news about the Motu Proprio. This has far-reaching, brand new inplications.
I don’t think the Pope wants to create yet another division in the Church. I think this is a further step towards eliminating the Novus Ordo. I love the term Gregorian Mass or rite, btw, because it simply eliminates all the ambiguities over the term “Tridentine,” the description “Latin,” etc. and also takes it out of the clutches of the self-appointed monitors of orthodoxy (who, while some of them must be thanked for heroically standing up to the modernists, can also be quite bitter and nasty and would probably drive people away). We’re making a fresh start, in other words.
I think this is really exciting news. My only concern was that perhaps this wasn’t exactly what Castrillon meant to say. However, I think the Pope or somebody else at the Vatican recently used the term “Gregorian Mass,” so it’s clearly something they’re discussing.
You might be right about Benedict’s true motives. It would be a more “streamlined” approach to simply phase out the N.O. Still, making the change from “Form” to “Rite” not even a year after the promulgation of the Motu Proprio certainly allows one to think of the possibility of two Rites eventually existing side-by-side in the Western Church, with the common-sense of a better-catechized future generation left to sort out which one will prevail in the long run.
I think what Pope Benedict is doing is a stroke of genius, with respect ot the Liturgy, as this will be seen by the Eastern Orthodox that Benedict is serious about restoring the dignity of the Roman/Western Liturgy and respecting and supporting the variety of Liturgical Rites in the Church.
He has already corrected the incorrrect interpretation of Vatican II in that the (Tridentine Liturgy) or Tridentine form of the ROman Rite was never abolished. Furthermore, if you go back to the Council of Trent, it did reduce the variations of the Roman Rite that were in place in various Local Churches. Howeve, any Western Rite that was in place, I think at least 200 years before Trent), was retained. These variations of the Latin-Roman Rite would include the Ambrosian-Rite (a form of the ROman Rite) celebrated in Milan, Italy, the Mozarabic/Visogothic Rite, which is a form of the Roman Rite celebrated in the region around Toledo, Spain. In addition, the forms of the ROman RIte celebrated by various Religous orders such as the Domenicans, Carthusians, Benedectines, etc, could still be celebrated. Thus, the Gregorian Rite, which finds its origins going back to the 4th century, would still be a valid expression of the Roman Liturgy that was never abolished, assuming that the Pope is in fact wanting it to be celebrated where there are Priests who can celebrate it.
If one reads Pope Benedict’s “Spirit of the Liturgy” his tieing the Incarnation to a fixed point of human history, that is in the Roman-Greek culture of the first century, binds us to a particular place and time since it was in God’s Providential plan and thus his Holy Will that Christ would enter into human history in that culture context.
Accordingly, Liturgy developed in that context and thus because of the Incarnation taking place in that culture we are bound by History in terms of Liturgy and thus History takes place over modern culture. Liturgy is something that comes from God to us, we don’t create it on our own.
Good thread and regards
I think the odds are he meant what he said -- the article says it was a press conference, presumably a scheduled one that the Cardinal had prepared for and likely called himself. Much as many of us here love him, he doesn't exactly have rock star status with the press and most likely isn't shadowed by papparazzi. Some might seek him out to comment on "news" -- but the only news is what he said in the press conference!
That’s what I thought, too. I go to Spain a lot, and the Mozarabic Rite is celebrated in a few of places that were dissatisfied with the NO and got permission a few years ago. However, it’s very different, much closer to one of the earlier Eastern Rites (St. Basil, perhaps), and was obviously never going to grow. In addition, while they have the texts, nobody knows how the notation was read or how it sounded.
Personally, I think it was a little more on the Greek or Middle Eastern side. Spain was Rome’s most important colony, and after the fall of Rome, Spain actually continued to be an intellectual center up until the time of the Muslim invasions. However, there were various places in Spain with a strong Greek influence, and in any case, in Southern Spain, the population was not so much Celtic-Roman as it was Phoenician-Roman. Well, that and the Iberos, who were a group that have not yet been identified; they may actually have been uber-Celts from Turkey, or they may even have come from further to the East.
In any case, the installation of the Frankish-Roman rite in Spain began very early and continued for a couple hundred years, not so much because of resistance as because of the fact that much of Spain at that time was under Muslim domination. Places such as Toledo, where the Visigothic or Mozarabic Rite had been in practice and only briefly interrupted by the Muslims were able to keep it. They really didn’t keep it as much more than a museum piece until fairly recently, however. But in any case, interestingly enough, the first examples of the modern Spanish language are found on liturgical texts in a monastery in Northern Spain (La Rioja) where a monk was obviously taking notes on information provided at that time, probably in Latin by a Frenchman, relating to the Office.
I think dropping back to an earlier period might defuse a lot of the hostility and preconceptions. But, after seeing what I have seen in the US among the bishops in the last few months, including my own bishop here in St Augustine, who has somehow emerged as the leader of the anti-Tridentine forces in the US, I think it won’t work unless it’s mandatory.
I read a post on a blog from somebody who has spoken with Cdl Castrillon in other situations and said his English is just fine and if he said it, he meant it. And he wouldn’t have said it without the approval of BXVI.
Keeping toes and fingers crossed...because the only way this is going to happen is if the bishops have no choice. And there may be some, such as mine, who will have to be removed over it.
ROFL!!!! Haven't heard that expression in many years. I believe many of these bishops still rely on Catholic ignorance. Given the news reports we all see via the internet, reading the local diocesan newspaper can be quite intriguing. The international and national stories published to the diocesan newspaper tend to be very selective, with only those stories that reflect the view of the local ordinary. To cite an example, this diocese had no ordinations this year and the paper did not provide coverage of Burke's effort leads to biggest Catholic ordination. Instead, the repetitive weekly focus is on 'We are Church', a program inviting more and more laity to get involved in lay ecclesial ministries.
According to an article published in The Schenectady Gazette, there are presently 131 priests in the Albany Diocese serving in 160 parishes. The diocese projects that by the year 2020 (only 12 years from now) there will be only 36 active priests in this diocese.
FWIW, the one and only Church that provides the Extraordinary form of the Latin Mass, is slotted to close at the end of this year. The bishop has promised that the Latin Mass will continue in another parish.
Well, they won't all get the vapors. Quite a few are very open to the Gregorian Mass.
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