Posted on 07/18/2008 6:46:18 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
GRAPEVINE, Texas (BP)--Have you ever noticed that when a discussion turns to a recently deceased celebrity, someone invariably says, "I know he's looking down on us right now"? It doesn't matter how godless the person was, his peers refer to him as being in a better place and then gesture skyward.
Mark Coppenger, professor of Christian apologetics at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, sees a lamentable example of that in the 1941 poem "High Flight," which was quoted in tribute to astronauts who died in the 1986 explosion of the Space Shuttle Challenger.
Not all the astronauts were Christians "but we were told they 'slipped the surly bonds of earth to touch the face of God,'" Coppenger noted. He also recalled a cartoon in a Chicago newspaper that depicted the late sports announcer Harry Caray being welcomed by Saint Peter at the pearly gates, even though there was no evidence Caray was redeemed.
"Everywhere you turn, culture ignores the Bible to make gassy pronouncements on the afterlife," Coppenger said.
Such secular cultural perceptions are uninformed by the truth and seem to be based on the delusion that one's eternal destiny is determined either by heinous deeds or good poll numbers.
Some people assume the dearly departed are in heaven because they weren't notorious sinners. People want to believe the departed went to heaven because they know they themselves are sinners and want to believe they are not bad enough for hell. "I'm not as bad as the other guy," goes the thinking. "God will somehow understand in the end that we were pretty good people, and based on our overall behavior He should let us into heaven."
In a 2004 address at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, David Dockery, president of Union University in Jackson, Tenn., said, "Even those who retain some vague idea of heavenly bliss beyond this life are slow to acknowledge the reality of final judgment and condemnation. Modern men and women live with the mindset that there is no heaven, no hell and therefore no guilt."
FOCUSED ON THIS WORLD
Steve Lemke, provost of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, said so much error is found in popular thinking about eternity because there's "less preaching now about heaven and hell than in previous eras." He attributes that trend to the upward social mobility of Southern Baptists.
Until the 1950s, Southern Baptists were mostly rural, small-town folks and heaven was the only respite many poor people expected from their hardscrabble existence, Lemke noted. "So we lived with hope and our eyes on the skies, awaiting Christ's return," he said.
But with increased education and income, Southern Baptists moved to suburbia and began enjoying a fairly comfortable lifestyle with a focus on coping in this world, Lemke added.
"We don't give nearly the attention we should to eternity," he said. "Popular preaching focuses on how to have a better marriage, better relationships and how to cope with struggles.
"It is important that we address these topics in preaching and teaching, of course, but not to the neglect of a focus on eternity," he said. "By this very focus on meeting needs in this world -- to the neglect of preaching on heaven and hell -- we are showing by our actions that this world is more significant than the world to come."
Malcolm Yarnell, associate professor of systematic theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, sees two causes for the neglect of preaching on eternity, both of which "reflect the power of contemporary culture to distort the message once-for-all given to the saints."
"First, our people and pastors are increasingly interested in making heaven here on earth," Yarnell said. "The modern pursuit of material wealth and comfort, alongside the overarching desire to avoid pain or physical problems of any type, is a longstanding and pervasive influence in our culture. Rather than challenging such a mindset, some of us quietly cave into the demand for sermons to consider primarily mundane matters.
"Second, the subject of hell is not exactly the most comfortable subject to address," he said. "Postmodernism, with its attendant religious inclusivism and aversion to judgment, is the dominant outlook of our cultural elite, especially in the media; to condemn non-Christians to an eternity in hell is considered impolite, even rude."
"In the 1950s of my childhood, it was easier to preach on hell because there was more widespread conviction that the Bible was true," Coppenger added. "Or perhaps it worked the other way around: There was greater respect for the Bible because ministers preached the whole counsel of God, including the reality of hell, without embarrassment, mumbling, or marketing spin."
A NEED TO HEAR THE TRUTH
People think about the afterlife, but they need to hear the truth amid the eschatological blather espoused by the New Age movement, Mormonism, universalism, and other false religions, Coppenger added.
Yarnell agreed: "We don't clearly enough make the biblical connection between the doctrine of heaven and hell and the life we live today. The unfortunate consequence of this neglect is that we too easily live like permanent residents of the City of Man rather than the resident aliens we are, headed to our good end as Christ's people in the City of God."
Even people on opposite sides of the Calvinism issue seem to agree on certain matters of eternity, Yarnell added.
"Both traditional Baptists and Calvinist Baptists look at Scripture as inerrant and the supreme source of our doctrine," Yarnell said. "The New Testament is filled with references to heaven and hell. There is not a page of Scripture that, directly or indirectly, does not call the hearer to consider his eternal standing before an eternal God. If you derive your proclamation from Scripture, you will preach heaven and hell. On this, all conservative Southern Baptists will agree."
Muslims may talk more about eternal consequences than do evangelicals, says former missionary Eddie Pate, associate professor of missions at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.
"Heaven and hell are issues I talked about all the time with Muslims," Pate said. "Many of my best conversations revolved around these topics. I would guess that, during our years on the mission field, heaven and hell were topics in at least half the conversations I had with Muslims.
"Muslims believe people who follow the pillars of Islam will go to heaven -- at least they hope so," Pate added. "But Muslims can't speak with any assurance like Christians can. They can't embrace 'Christ died once for our sins, once for all, the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God' (1 Peter 3:18). They have no such confidence."
Mormons, on the other hand, teach a universalistic view of an afterlife, explained Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary President R. Philip Roberts, who has written and lectured extensively on cults.
LDS founder Joseph Smith was traumatized by the accusation that his brother who died as a teenager had gone to hell and fashioned a religion in which "everyone is going to a better place," Roberts said. "Whether you are as evil as Adolf Hitler or whatever your lifestyle, you're at least going to go into a celestial kingdom, which Mormonism teaches is a far better place than this life and world, a place of great bliss and happiness."
Smith included all his elements of an afterlife -- becoming like gods and having many wives -- after becoming involved in polygamous affairs, Roberts noted. "His doctrine of the afterlife was created to satisfy his need to provide some kind of quasi-universalism and to cover his moral failures," he said.
THREE REASONS TO PREACH ON ETERNITY
Preaching on the doctrines of heaven and hell are vitally important because they "teach us not only of the life to come, but teach us much about how we should live in the everyday of life today," said David Nelson, theology professor and academic vice president at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C.
"The doctrine of heaven and, yes, the doctrine of hell, lead us to reflect on the greatness and goodness of God who is holy and who is love, who is beautiful and glorious," Nelson said. "To fail to teach these doctrines is to fail to teach of the fullness of God by whom we are all to be filled, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 3."
"No preacher in his right mind enjoys preaching on hell," added David Allen, theology dean at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. "Hell is a place terrible beyond imagination. But no preacher in his right mind can avoid preaching on hell. As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:11, 'knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.'"
Allen said he preaches about hell for three reasons:
1) It is a biblical doctrine. Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven. Jesus uses the word "Hades" four times in his preaching and the word "hell" 11 times. Eighteen of the 28 times Jesus uses the word "fire" in the Gospels, he is talking about hell. If there is no hell, then there is no punishment for sin.
2) We are commanded to preach the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). The Lord will hold his preachers accountable for preaching all of the Bible, not just the parts of it people like to hear.
3) Jesus lived, died and rose again so people would not have to go to hell. Only Jesus can save someone from his sins and from hell.
"Doctrinal preaching is drastically needed in our churches," Allen said. "Believe it or not, most people in the churches want to know what God said about heaven and hell. In fact, most lost people want to know as well. When I preach on hell, I have found most people give serious attention during the message.
"Remember, one should never preach on hell as if he were glad people were going there," he added. "If you don't preach with a tear in your eye, at least preach with a tear in your heart when you preach on hell. Speaking the truth in love in the power of the Holy Spirit is a powerful thing. Trust God to bless your preaching in this area and you will not be disappointed -- and neither will your people."
Eddie Pate remembers when he first listened to a cassette tape of Jerry Spencer, his uncle, preaching on hell.
"One summer, 30 years ago, as I painted a house, I listened to that same cassette tape over and over," Pate recalled. "The title of the sermon was 'If Hell Is Hell and We Don't Tell, What Kind of People Are We?'
"The title and the theme might sound 'old school' these days, but I hear that question go through my mind almost every day," Pate said. "As leaders and pastors we must regain the passion, emotion and depth of feeling that comes from understanding that our unsaved friends are indeed lost and bound for an eternity in hell outside of Christ. We must bear precious seed, weeping."
Rev. 20:10 says ‘tormented forever and ever,’ at which point the lake of fire has three occupants.
At Rev. 20:14 death itself is abolished. No more death. Everyone is immortal at Rev. 20:14.
Rev. 20:15 shows an increase in the population of the lake of fire - all immortal.
Ahem... God could have done anything He wanted to. The fact remains that you have to live with the way He designed justice and the payment for it. If you live according to His rules, you have no choice but to accept that He created heaven as a reward and hell as punishment.
I recommend anything by C.S. Lewis, particularly Mere Christianity
The problem is that the Oxford don's books are so well written, so witty, and so thought provoking that the average shallow minds that glomed on to "The DaVinci Code" can't even understand his books. You actually have to think.
I'm not someone who denies the existence of hell. I'm just saying that heaven doesn't require hell. To say so is logically inconsistent to say it does. A corollary to that belief would be that good cannot exist without evil. If Satan hadn't fallen, tempted Adam and Eve, and thus had not necessitated that God create hell for him and those who do not accept Jesus, there would still be heaven. If God in the end only chose to save one person and send the rest to hell, He would still be a loving God.
As Jesus spoke authoritatively about both, I accept His word that they both exist. I accept the price that must be paid by His sacrifice to erase my debt. And I do so with gratitude.
I have no reason to doubt His own words.
If Satan hadn't fallen, tempted Adam and Eve, and thus had not necessitated that God create hell for him and those who do not accept Jesus, there would still be heaven.
I don't place any value on the IF statement you made above. There is no erasing the fact that Adam and Eve did fall, that hell exists, and that it is the judgement of God that determines my eternal fate.
Wondering about ifs holds no value for me.
I simply accept the Word as fact and go on from there.
If someone were to die, and then come back, would you believe their account of what happens after we die?
So then what is good? The absence of evil? Is evil the absence of good? What a great circular argument.
Think about a good act: Someone gives a needy person a meal. Is there a better act? Someone gives a needy person a meal and a place to stay. Is there a neutral act? Someone walks by a needy person without realizing the needy person is there or in need. Is there a bad act? Someone takes the needy person's coat. Is there a worse act? Someone assaults the needy person leaving him in pain.
Now if we remove the bad and worse acts, does it leave good without definition? Of course not, there is the neutral act. If we take away the neutral act, is good without definition? Of course not, because then we would not recognize the difference between "good" and "better".
Some people wouldn't believe their account even with 500 witnesses, four documented accounts, and a 2-billion person following.
He would.
No sin is to great that it is not forgiven at the Cross.
Wow! You mean that before I was saved, when I'd get drunk and get into fights I was doing what God wanted me to do? /SARC
And when I was having sex with women whose last names I didn't know (and in some cases, in the morning, I couldn't even remember their first names) it was alright because that was God's work? /More SARC
Stuart, have you actually read the Bible? You are worshiping a very different god than the Christians on this thread.
If you love God, you will obey His law. How does your god reveal himself, Stuart? How do you know what he expects from you?
Don’t bother. You should go outside and speak to a brick wall, instead.
Speak to it?! I wish you'd told me that before. It's a lot easier than beating my head against it.
Mark Coppenger, professor of Christian apologetics at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, sees a lamentable example of that in the 1941 poem “High Flight,” which was quoted in tribute to astronauts who died in the 1986 explosion of the Space Shuttle Challenger.
Not all the astronauts were Christians “but we were told they ‘slipped the surly bonds of earth to touch the face of God,’” Coppenger noted.
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My youngest daughter was 6 when this happened and was excited about watching the blast off on TV at school. Because of the teacher aboard the shuttle, schools were taking part in a big way...
She left home that morning thrilled about the days events and chatting like a magpie...
When the shuttle exploded I immediately thought of her and how I was going to help her through such a horrendous tragedy....when I called her school, they told me that the students were to be dismissed but the time was uncertain...
When Jean came home ABOUT AN HOUR LATER, the mystery for the school’s evasiveness was apparant...They had immediately gone into mourning mode and taken the children with them...
Little Jean was already a Bible believing Christian and came into the house disgusted with the adults at her school..She proved she knew more about God and where the souls of the dead had departed to, and why..
She said, “Mom, they dismissed us, but told us to wait in our classroom. After a while, some people who were crying came into the room and told us that it had been the worse thing that would ever happen to us, and that we were sad, and we would never forget what happened, and would be sad all our lives. Mom, that’s not true. I know what happened to those people. If they believed in Jesus, they went to Heaven. If they did not believe in Jesus, then they went to Hell. John 3:16, Mom. I tried to tell those people, but they would not listen to me. They were all crying and made all the kids cry too. We were sad until they came into the room, but after they said that, kids were frightened, and screaming, and it was awful. I ran all the way home to tell you that. Why did those people say we would always be sad ???”
Out of the mouth of babes...
I was incensed that they would keep my child at school and lie to her.. I found out those hysterical people had been mental health workers from the community...without my permission, they had preached to my child a doctrine of devils..Her school was 5-10 minutes walk and I could have just gone and got her, if I had known..
Consequently Jean got over the horror of what she had witnessed a lot faster than some of the other children..when she discussed the tragedy with her little Christian friends at school, she discovered that their parents had used the event as a Bible learning tool, and had mentioned Heaven and Hell to them, too..
For a time those students not thinking that the world had come to an end were lightly ostracized..the children had been encouraged to believe a lie...religion in the schools..
Jean remembers the shuttle explosion to this day..not only because of the deaths of the astronauts, but because of how helpless she felt, at age six, when adults lied to her about God and His Heaven, and our hope of Glory...
I was in the Air Force, too, and that poem “High Flight” is not a funeral dirge but describes how a pilot feels awed and happy and all alone up there and so close to Heaven that he feels He can touch the face of God...
I love that poem because it does describe how a pilot might feel..I’ve done some flying, and it is true...
Probably as comforting to him as it is for you in the knowledge that mormons exist. lol.
Make that five. Paul's account of his conversion with the risen Christ.
But your analysis is correct. In fact, did not Christ Himself say in Luke 16:31 - "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
I read to this point and cannot help but wonder about alllll those first penned by Isaiah 6: 9-10, and then spoken by Christ. Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of *HEAVEN*, but to them it is not given. Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to *THEM* (the multitudes) in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
What kind of religion does NOT read with understanding that it is not and was not given for all to understand the mysteries of heaven.... while in this flesh age? The Heavenly Father has the ultimate perfected justice, He knows our thoughts and nobody cons Him ... and ignorance of the law/WORD is not held against us, as our legal system in this day holds.
Every soul born from above (John 3) returns to the Maker that sent that soul the good the bad and the ugly.
Now there are even some that God says HE will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; IIThessalonians 2: Whole chapter!!! Hmmmmmm.
Many use this verse as a proof text for the doctrine of endless torment, and not without reason. Having announced the total destruction of Satan's hosts whom he had gathered for one last desperate assault against the saints, John adds: "And the devil which deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Gr., eis tous anionas ton aionon - literally, "unto the ages of the ages"). Does this text settle the matter? One could counter by asking, "Is any doctrine to be settled by one text which on the face of it seems to say exactly what a dogma declares, even though the Scriptures in many, many other places seem to say just as plainly somethng to the contrary?" Is God a god of confusion?
That having been said, I return to the point at issue. Does Rev. 20:10 settle the question concerning the endless torment of the wicked? Insofar as the triumvirate which is named is concerned it seems to certainly do so. But again I have some questions (1) Who is said to be tormented so relentlessly, everyone cast into hell or some obviously deserving characters? (2) Why those three more than others - more so, perhaps than a twelve year old child whose life was snuffed out just short of the commitment of his or her life to Christ? Is future punishment commensurate with one's sin or is everyone punished the same, contrary to the array of deeds done in the body?
Actually, I have no problem accepting Rev. 20:10 at face value, even literally, despite its placement in an apocalyptic frame of reference. But I am still looking for a text which says mere mortals such as we rub elbows with daily are punished to the same degree. Those persons I know who most stoutly insist they so believe rarely, if ever, so behave toward the lost. But man's inconsistencies are not to be the determinate factor in the acceptance or rejection of a doctrine. Nonetheless, I do find myself asking, does any one pay any more than lip-service to the traditional view of eternal punishment?
At Rev. 20:14 death itself is abolished. No more death. Everyone is immortal at Rev. 20:14.
Rev. 20:15 shows an increase in the population of the lake of fire - all immortal.
Let's quote these two verses for a closer look.
(Vs 14) "Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (Vs 15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Your statement that all are immortal in these two verses is not so. Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire - which is their second death. It is only the redeemed that have been given immortality (see I Cor. 15:35-57) Again, it is the unredeemed that will suffer the second death by being thrown into the lake of fire. I haven't the time to list all the multitude of Scriptures that tell us that the unredeemed with suffer "death" as the penalty for sin. Romans 6;23 says that "the wages of sin is death", not "life in hell-fire." Some refer to this as a "living death", but that is self-contradictory: death is the absence of life, plain and simple. Read II Peter 3 and see what he has to say about the destruction of ungodly men and the end of the world.
LOL! Stuart has that effect on us.
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