"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to Myself."
John 12:32
Posted on 08/03/2008 11:01:07 AM PDT by NYer
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to Myself."
John 12:32
My religion teaches that the original church established by Jesus and his apostles fell way in apostasy, as predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (NASB):
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
How does your faith interpret this passage?
Thanks for the post, the scripture references given indicate that Jesus did establish a church and left authority with the apostles to act in his name. I realize many Christians do no believe this to be so.
I would add from Ephesians 2 (NASB):
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Of course, this could be interpreted to say the Bible is that foundation, and the writings and traditions from which the Bible sprang, i.e. there was no Bible as we know it today at the time of this epistle.
"If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
The house referred to in Psalms 127:1 is explained here. Notice the word used in this verse is 'church' not 'churches'.
Also note that the Bible says it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Odd, I thought the Bible says that God is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
I have asked protestants at least 100 times to show me a verse in the Bible that shows this and I have yet to get a single legitimate, intelligent response
Remember the words of Archbishop Sheen ...
"If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches in the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church which is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and of never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must be destroyed in the name of GOD as men crucified Christ and thought they had done a service to GOD. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because He called Himself The Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the world as Our Lord was rejected by men. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its Voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. But only that which is Divine can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is Divine."
Typology is awesome. It proves many Catholic points of view.
Worth getting into a class where this is emphasized. Fortunately, that has happened for me.
Exactly!
Thank you for this truthful writing from the Blessed Fulton Sheen!
Please give me the date of this monumental historical event. It would be helpful if you could also show me the genuine historical documents which "prove" what your church charges. Of the thousands of genuine historical documents of every century going all the way back to the first century, and which are available for anyone to research, why is there no mention of this so-called earth shaking "great Apostasy" anywhere to be found? Don't you think that a falling away of the Church which Jesus Christ founded would "rock the universe", so to speak, and be the cause of a great chastisement from GOD after what His Son went through in His passion? Look at what happened to the Jews for their disobedience?
On the contrary. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with, and teach His Church forever in John 14:16-17. Such an accusation as made by your church is tantamount to calling Jesus Christ a liar for His promises of perpetuity to His Church? See 1John 5:10.
According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the "pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible. Individual interpretation of Scripture was not practiced by the early Christians or the Jews. (Acts 8:29-35). The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is also false. Even the "founder" of Sola Scriptura (Martin Luther), near the end of his life, was afraid that "any milkmaid who could read" would found a new Christian denomination based on his or her "interpretation" of the Bible. Hence, the existence of 25,000+ Christian Churches that all claiming to be authentic in their teachings. If the Bible was to be the sole authority of the Church, shouldn't the Founder, Jesus Christ, have written down His Own teachings? Shouldn't He have at least stated something similar to the following: "the written works of My disciples will be the authority upon which My Church is based?" Since the Gospels are the heart of the New Testament, please show me the verse(s) where He commanded anyone to write them. Please show me where the Bible says that it alone is the sole authority.
What did Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer, state about the Bible? In his "Commentary On St. John," he stated the following: "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we have received It from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of It at all." Regardless of what you may think or say, according to secular, objective historians, the Catholic Church alone preserved Sacred Scripture throughout the persecution of the Roman Empire and during the Dark Ages. All non-Catholic Christian denominations owe the existence of the Bible to the Catholic Church alone. Why did God choose the Catholic Church to preserve Scripture if It is not His Church?
As you know only too well, Archbishop Sheen was the first televangelist. What Bishop Clark did to wreckovate the Cathedral of the Sacred Heart - Archbishop Sheen's seat - is beyond tragic. In faith, let us pray for the Archbishop's cause.
Prayer for the Canonization of the Servant of God Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
Heavenly Father, source of all holiness, You raise up within the Church in every age men and women who serve with heroic love and dedication. You have blessed Your Church through the life and ministry of Your faithful servant, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen. He has written and spoken well of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, and was a true instrument of the Holy Spirit in touching the hearts of countless people.
If it be according to Your Will, for the honor and glory of the Most Holy Trinity and for the salvation of souls, we ask You to move the Church to proclaim him a saint. We ask this prayer through Christ, our Lord. Amen.
2. PRAY FOR FAVORS THROUGH HIS INTERCESSION
When God wants to glorify one of His servants for Sainthood, He grants many favors through his or her intercession. These favors may be in the form of physical or emotional healings, resolving of family difficulties, spiritual conversions or help in special needs such as finding a job or buying a home. Again, we have to ask God in prayer for these favors through the Archbishop's intercession. We may want to use the prayer below:
Prayer to Obtain a Favor Through the Intercession of the Servant of God Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
Eternal Father, You alone grant us every blessing in Heaven and on earth, through the redemptive mission of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, and by the working of the Holy Spirit. If it be according to Your Will, glorify Your servant, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, by granting the favor I now request through his prayerful intercession (mention your request). I make this prayer confidently through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.
“13. Holy Scripture tells us that it is the Church and not the Bible which is the pillar and foundation of truth. 1Timothy 3:15.”
Irenaeus disagrees. Against Heresies, Book III:
1. WE have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.2 For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed “perfect knowledge,” as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews3 in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church”
Love Bishop Sheen’s homilies!!
(In fact, you can hear them from 10-11 PM Eastern daily on the Relevant Radio stream — www.relevantradio.org)
But I think this should have been an “open” thread. The corresponding ranting and raving that would come with it being “open” would just reveal the agenda and character of the ranters, it wouldn’t damage the truth spoken by the bishop!
I'm sure all those attending Jewish synagogues next Sabbath will be glad to know how puffed up and conceited they are.
Ekklesia simply means a "gathering" - a community gathering - a gathering of believers. The traditions of the apostles were recorded in Scripture. What Rome refers to as "tradition" is all of the early stuff that is valid plus all the stuff they made up - mainly in the Dark Ages through the early Middle Ages. It does not follow that if one accepts the former then one must accept the latter.
The Church of Rome invented all scores of things that had no foundation in either reality, history or tradition. The Marian doctrines are the most egregious, but certainly purgatory and confession to priests and "dividing up sin" into mortal and venial could be added to it along with a myriad of smaller issues that don't come to mind right now.
Martin Luther was God's judgment on the Church, in my view, and when the Church got off track and slipped into invention and legalism, God simply went around them - through the wit and wisdom he imparted to a German monk.
If the Church was God's doing, then so was the Reformation. The Reformation led to the Enlightenment, and the Enlightenment led to the ideas of political equality, equal justice under the law, individual liberty, etc. That all had to be God's doing, too, because it led to the founding of the United States of America, which creation surely was due to God's Providence. It's all part of the plan.
Perhaps you aren't familiar with the Guidelines for Ecumenical threads
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