"Have I Then Become Your Enemy Because I Tell You the Truth?" [Ecumenical]

I love my Catholic friends and Freepers as well. Sometimes I think we ALL go over the top on our comments about each other’s beliefs. I believe our faiths have the core beliefs regarding Jesus, his life, death and resurrection. It’s the extra stuff, as you say, that messes it up. Blessings.

First, my statement in #57 was not that +Irenaeus used the term Magesterium, nor did I state that the definition for the term was contained within +Irenaeus' apology that we're discussing..

Rather, I said, None of what you've written decreases the argument from Irenaeus, supporting the requirement for a Magesterium (in fact, it validates the idea)

I will phrase it a little differently, in case there was some misunderstanding of what was intended to be said:

None of what you've written decreases the argument from +Irenaeus, supporting the requirement for a teaching authority, to define and clarify the meaning of the Scriptures (in fact, it validates the idea)

You continue, Irenaeus does not say that the bishops of the churches are the only teaching authority or the sole repositories of the Apostolic Tradition. It is the churches that are the repositories and the bishops are the shepherds.

I, for one, think that the references in Book III that we have discussed already are more than sufficient. I will, however, throw in one more for you to chew on:

8. True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].
IV.33.8

You then make the following statement:

There is a translation problem with your interpretation. The Greek original "potiorem principalitatem" translated into Latin, "Ad hanc enim ecclesiam propter potiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam", has been translated by Catholic scholars as: "For to this Church, on account of more potent principality, it is necessary that every Church (that is, those who are on every side faithful) resort; in which Church ever, by those who are on every side, has been preserved that tradition which is from the apostles." (Berington and Kirk, vol. i. p. 252.) Here it is obvious that the faith was kept at Rome by those who visited there from all quarters. She just mirrored the orthodoxy of the churches, owing her orthodoxy to them. The greatness of Rome, that is, as the capital of the Empire (potiorem principalitatem), imparts to the local Church a superior dignity, even as compared with Lyons, or any other metro-political Church. Everybody visits Rome, therefore, you find there faithful witnesses from every side (from all the Churches); and their united testimony it is which preserves in Rome the pure apostolic traditions.

The note in Schaff says virtually the same thing:

The Latin text of this difficult but important clause is, “Ad hanc enim ecclesiam propter potiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam.” Both the text and meaning have here given rise to much discussion. It is impossible to say with certainty of what words in the Greek original “potiorem principalitatem” may be the translation. We are far from sure that the rendering given above is correct, but we have been unable to think of anything better. [A most extraordinary confession. It would be hard to find a worse; but take the following from a candid Roman Catholic, which is better and more literal: “For to this Church, on account of more potent principality, it is necessary that every Church (that is, those who are on every side faithful) resort; in which Church ever, by those who are on every side, has been preserved that tradition which is from the apostles.” (Berington and Kirk, vol. i. p. 252.) Here it is obvious that the faith was kept at Rome, by those who resort there from all quarters. She was a mirror of the Catholic World, owing here orthodoxy to them; not the Sun, dispensing her own light to others, but the glass bringing their rays into a focus. See note at end of book iii.] A discussion of the subject may be seen in chap. xii. of Dr. Wordsworth’s St. Hippolytus and the Church of Rome.

I prefer the original statement to your version, as it candidly states, It is impossible to say with certainty of what words in the Greek original “potiorem principalitatem” may be the translation. We are far from sure that the rendering given above is correct, but we have been unable to think of anything better.

You then go to quote The translation from the editor of the American Series of Ante-Nicene Fathers is...

This was not the translation from the editor of the American Series. This was from an "Elucidation." It can be found here (caution: Catholics will not want to click on that page and read the entire editorial commentary on this section -- it will only anger the Catholic reader). This type of stuff was rampant in 19th Century Protestant scholarship. I will give them credit: for the most part, they clearly separated their scholarly work from their editorializing. But I've read far harsher editorializing than this. I won't quote the sections to which I refer, as they aren't appropriate for an "ecumenical thread."

One thing I would ask, though, is if you could indicate what is your work and what you've pasted in or paraphrased. While you did so on the second quote, the first paraphrase was without attribution (and the reader who was not familiar with Schaff might think that it was your own stuff).

Amen. I think it used to be in the official Lutheran teaching that the Pope was the Anti-Christ and that the Church of Rome was the Great Whore of Babylon, or something like that.

Still there -- Smalcald Confession. I think Article XV (but I'm not going to bother looking it up)

Mind you, I don't know of a single Lutheran who personally confesses it. But it's still on both the WELS and LCMS websites in their doctrinal pages (I looked not long ago).

I love my Catholic friends and brethren, and I especially love Pope Benedict XVI. I am always giving them a hard time (and vice-versa) about how Lutheranism is simply Catholicism without "all the stuff you guys made up".

That's very kind...we Catholics need to drink more Guiness...so as not to be so humorless and Lutheran-like ;-) (please note the wink)

“One thing I would ask, though, is if you could indicate what is your work and what you’ve pasted in or paraphrased. While you did so on the second quote, the first paraphrase was without attribution (and the reader who was not familiar with Schaff might think that it was your own stuff).”

This was not a “cut and paste” from Schaff and the correct attributions are in the paragraph, “Berington and Kirk, vol. i. p. 252.)” and “See note at end of book iii.] A discussion of the subject may be seen in chap. xii. of Dr. Wordsworth’s St. Hippolytus and the Church of Rome”

“This was not the translation from the editor of the American Series.”

The editor says, “Sustaining these views by a few footnotes, I add (1) a literal rendering of my own,”

“IV.33.8”

I can’t find this citation or the quote in any of the works of Irenaeus.

This was not a “cut and paste” from Schaff

Never said it was. I said it was a paraphrase. If it's not a paraphase, it's too similar for me to believe that it's a coincidence.

The editor says, “Sustaining these views by a few footnotes, I add (1) a literal rendering of my own,”

The "literal rendering of his own" was, “For it is necessary for every Church (that is to say, the faithful from all parts) to meet in this Church, on account of the superior magistracy; in which Church, by those who are from all places, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved.” What you quoted was "amplified" (if you've ever read the "Amplified Bible," you'll get the allusion).

I can’t find this citation or the quote in any of the works of Irenaeus.

there you go: Book IV, Chapter 33, paragraph 8.