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The Dying Rooms
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=21055 ^ | Jan. 07, 2002 | CNS

Posted on 08/03/2008 4:37:49 PM PDT by stfassisi

The Dying Rooms

Chinese Orphanages adopt a "zero population growth policy"

By Steven W. Mosher

Jan. 07, 2002

The medical histories of the dead children of the Shanghai Children's Welfare Institute, China's showcase orphanage, read like macabre experiments in human starvation:

Ke Yue, a girl, was admitted to the orphanage in November 1989, the month of her birth. Two and a half years later, on June 9, 1992, orphanage doctors recorded that she had developed "third–degree malnutrition," was "breathing in shallow gasps." On June 10 she was admitted to the medical ward, where she died later the same day. Two separate causes of death were diagnosed by her physician, Wu Junfeng: "severe malnutrition" and "congenital maldevelopment of brain."

Huo Qiu, a girl born in approximately February 1988, arrived at the orphanage on January 3, 1991, at the age of 3. One and a half years later, on June 16, 1992, she was diagnosed as suffering from "severe malnutrition" and "cerebral palsy." A week later, she was dead. According to her medical records, she died of the two illnesses just mentioned, together with, for good measure, "mental deficiency."

Ba Chong, a baby girl, was admitted to the orphanage on January 3, 1992, the day after her birth, weighing a respectable six pound. On June 17 she was admitted to the medical ward and diagnosed as suffering from "severe malnutrition" and "severe dehydration." Three days later she developed a head infection caused by a bed sore, and was recorded as being "listless." She died on June 30, at the age of six months. Death was noted in the medical records as having resulted from "malnutrition," "severe dehydration" and "phlegmona" (an uncontrolled form of subcutaneous necrotic infection).

Sun Zhu, a baby girl born in May 1989, was admitted to the orphanage at the age of one month. Medical staff recorded her general condition on arrival as "poor," although her weight was normal, and branded her as being "mentally defective." In late July, after a seven–week gap in the medical records, Sun was suddenly said to be suffering from third–degree malnutrition. Ten days later she was again diagnosed as being "mentally defective," and the physician suggested she might also have cerebral palsy, although the only indications were that she was "listless" and had "high muscular tension in all limbs," probably because she was starving. In any event, no medication or treatment was prescribed, and three days later Sun died, ostensibly of "congenital maldevelopment of brain."

Zeng Yuan, a baby girl born on October 25, 1991, was admitted to the orphanage on November 30, 1991 weighing a bouncing ten pounds, but was marked down as a "monitor intelligence" case. Three days later, implausibly enough, her physician recorded that she was suffering from "second–degree malnutrition." By December 12, she was "listless," showed "poor response to external stimuli," and her subcutaneous fat layer had vanished. The next day she was diagnosed as suffering from "congenital maldevelopment of brain." The doctor ordered the nursing staff to "take measures in accordance with the symptoms," followed as usual by a complete blank on the medical records. Two weeks later, Zeng died, ostensibly of "congenital maldevelopment of brain function" and "total circulatory failure."'

FIRST-HAND REPORTS

When these damning records were reprinted in a 394–page report by Human Rights Watch/Asia earlier this year, they were condemned as "sheer fabrication" by a staffer at the Shanghai Children's Welfare Institute. Foreign journalists were hastily invited to tour the orphanage (which was carefully spruced up for the occasion), where they heard Han Weicheng, the former director of the orphanage under whose tenure the worst abuses were said to have occurred, assert that "a very detailed investigation revealed that none of the charges were true. "Completely baseless," echoed China's governing State Council.

Baseless these charges are not. There is mounting evidence that the practice of letting unwanted children die of starvation and neglect is not limited to Shanghai, but is found in orphanages nationwide. As early as 1993 the South China Morning Post published photos and an account of "dying rooms" at an orphanage in Nanning in Guangxi province. Staff members told the Hong Kong newspaper that 90 percent of the baby girls who arrived at the orphanage died there. When a British journalist paid a call on the orphanage three months later, conditions had not improved. He wrote:

The scene in the shabby upstairs room of what is little better than a squalid hovel is utterly heartbreaking. Nineteen newborn infants, crammed four and five to each rusty cot, lie sleeping on filthy mattresses, their tiny heads peeping out over torn blankets.... This is the place they call the Dying Room.. Mr Lin [Jiiie. the director of the orphanage] says the orphanage has its own doctor, but no one ever knew where to find him. So the babies die of problems which could easily be remedied . . . "Ten percent a month die at least. That's quite normal," he said matter–of–factly.

In 1995 a British television crew posing as American charity workers managed to gain access to several Chinese orphanages. They encountered scenes of Dickensian horror: infants suffering from extreme malnutrition, young children tied hand and foot to wooden toilets. and the like. They were even able to slip into the "dying room" of one Guangdong orphanage, where they found a weak and emaciated little girl, Mei Ming, who had been abandoned there by the staff a week earlier. Mei Ming--whose name means "No Name" in Chinese--expired three days after their visit, as they were later able to confirm by telephone. The documentary which resulted, called "The Dying Rooms," aired on Britain's Channel 4 and was later shown in the US, in somewhat abbreviated form, on "Eye–to–Eye with Connie Chung."

An article in September 1995 by German journalist Jurgen Kremb in the newsmagazine Der Spiegel described similar conditions in a Harbin orphanage in the far Northeast of China. Kremb called this institution a "Kindergulag" (children's gulag) where the children are:

... like discarded, abandoned human garbage, their hands raven–black with dirt, their faces smeared with leftover food, snot, and excrement, their small bodies strangely twisted.... [In the dying room] handicapped small bodies, some just skin and bones . . . doze in their own urine, some naked, some dressed in a dirty little jacket.... Under a bed in the next room: a small bundle of rags. "Dead," says the graceful Guo Ymg, the l4-year old girl in charge. Last night the infant, whose name no one knows, died. The older children have wrapped the body in a couple of dirty cloths, which serve as a shroud. They then shoved the dead baby under the bed, where it stays until the staff get around to removing the corpse. On weekends that can take two or three days.

Anecdotal evidence abounds. An American missionary befriended a boy toddler in an orphanage in southwest China. Chinese staff members had stigmatized the boy as "mentally defective," but the missionary disagrees. "He had a crippled leg, but otherwise he was healthy," the missionary maintains. "I taught him to sing. Then I left town on business. And when I got back. he was dead."

On a visit to Hong Kong in June 1994, a local social worker showed the author pictures of dead and dying infants which she had taken in the "dying room" of an another orphanage in southwest China. This eyewitness recounted how baby girls were simply cast aside at the first sign of weakness to die a slow and painful death by dehydration and malnutrition, suggesting that this was how the orphanage staff coped with the large numbers of abandoned baby girls produced by the one–child policy.

ONE CHILD POLICY DEVALUES GIRLS

The most explosive charge leveled by the Human Rights Watch/Asia report is that the neglect which has been documented in a dozen individual orphanages is neither uncommon nor benign. but rather is universal and deliberate. The reason that conditions in China's orphanages are so appalling, the authors claim, is that there is a broad government program aimed at eliminating unwanted infants of all kinds, but particularly females.

The introduction of the one–child policy in China 15 years ago has been a disaster for girls. Couples desperate to have a son to support them in old age--according to Chinese custom daughters go to live with their husband's families after marriage--have gone to extreme lengths to ensure that their only legally permitted child be the right sex. Female fetuses are selectively aborted, while newborn baby girls fall victim to infanticide. Those infant girls who are merely abandoned, rather than killed in utero or after birth, must be considered fortunate. The rigid application of the one–child policy even leads parents to cast aside older daughters upon the arrival of a son, and to abandon the earlier–born handicapped child for a later–born healthy one.

In dynastic times peasants left their children to the mercy of strangers because they had nothing to feed them. But living standards have radically improved over the last 15 years of economic reform, with double–digit growth in the gross national product of late. The current wave of child abandonment is driven by political imperatives, not economic necessity. From time to time this comes through loud and clear, as in the note that was pinned to one foundling. It read:

Kind–hearted people, we are abandoning our child not because we cannot care for her, but because of the official one–child policy. Dear daughter. we do not have bad hearts. We couldn't keep you. Friendly people who take her up. we cannot repay the debt in this life. But perhaps in the next life.

Of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of girls abandoned each year, many die of exposure. Others are taken home by "friendly people" who are willing to risk the wrath of the population-control offcials. Even so, China's orphanages are filled to the bursting with female newborns and toddlers, with dozens more arriving each month. Abandoned girls are said to account for over 90 percent of the inmate populations of Chinese orphanages. At the main orphanage in Wuhan, for instance, researcher Kay Johnson reports that for the four–year period from 1988 to 1992 over "90+ percent" of the inmates were girls. And still the foundlings keep coming in an endless stream.

ZERO POPULATION GROWTH

This influx of baby girls, of course, puts an enormous strain on the resources of China's state–run orphanages. But while shortages of staff or medical supplies might lead to moderately increased infant mortality, it cannot account for annual death rates of 90 percent or more among new admissions. Nor can it account for the deliberate, even malicious, way these helpless infants are condemned to die by starvation and dehydration. The origins of the practice of death by malign neglect lie, as do so many things in China, in the politics of one–party dictatorship.

The huge numbers of abandoned baby girls constitute a massive indictment of the one–child policy, which was imposed on the Chinese people fifteen years ago by Communist patriarch Deng Xiaoping. Their piteous cries give the lie to the Party's claim that cases of female abandonment are rare. Indeed, their very existence is seen as an embarrassment, even an insult, to senior Party leaders. From the point of view of Party functionaries, including those who run China's orphanages, it would have been better if they had never been born. To deny their existence, a "zero population growth" policy has been established in China's orphanages, under which inmate populations are kept stable through deliberate attrition.

The politics of the one–child policy have thus totally perverted the purpose of China's so–called "child welfare institutes." Orphanages have become adjuncts of the population-control program: killing sites where surplus babies are selectively targeted for elimination. Infant girls who survive the earlier gauntlet of sex-selective abortion, female infanticide and abandonment now face a further risk: they may be left to die of hunger and thirst in the very institutions where they were taken for sanctuary.

[AUTHOR ID] Steven W. Mosher, who first exposed the brutality of China’s one-child policy, now works with Human Life International. His article is adapted from a report which first appeared in that organization’s newsletter.

[SIDBEBAR]

Free Economy or Forced Labor?

A noted dissident crusades against the prison camps

Harry Wu, a Chinese native and naturalized US citizen, gained international prominence in 1995 when he was arrested by the Chinese government, charged with "stealing state secrets," and sentenced to 15 years in prison. He was released and returnd to the United States only after a storm of protest from international human-rights groups, and a series of stern formal protests from Washington.

The son of a Shanghai banker, Wu was first arrested in 1960 for lodging public complaints against the government. In his memoir, Bitter Winds, he describes a harrowing 18-year confinement that included torture, forced labor, and improper nutrition. (Born a Catholic, Wu confessed in that memoir that his prison experience made it difficult for him to maintain a charitable attitude toward the political leaders whose regime he was fighting.) Upon his release he made his way to the United States, where he founded the Laogai Research Foundation to call public attention to the Chinese prison camps. He was returning to China to conduct research on the laogai, carrying a valid US passport, when he was arrested in 1995.

Although many Western observers cherish the hope that expanding economic contacts with the outside world will gradually lead to greater human freedom in China, Wu disputes that assumption. In a March 1996 address to the Independent Institute in San Francisco, he cautioned against the widespread belief that "Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms are the first rays of freedom shining on China's horizon." That economic liberalization, he contended, currently works to the benefit of Communist Party members, leaving the average Chinese resident behind.

In practice, Wu charged, the brand of capitalism now encouraged by Chinese officials allows only Party members to enjoy substantial private-property rights, and these Party members "can hardly be expected to risk losing their monopoly privileges by extending ownership." He concluded that "until private ownership is allowed on a wide scale, genuine liberalization--representative government, free markets, and individual rights--will remain elusive."

But in Wu’s mind the question of property rights is always secondary; his primary focus is on the laogai system. Thus he told the Independent Institute:

Another barrier to freedom is China's machinery for crushing dissident: the more than 1,100 labor reform camps called the laogai. The laogai is not simply a prison system. It is a political tool for maintaining the Communist Party's totalitarian rule. Many of the laogai's 6 to 8 million inmates are political prisoners, most of whom will spend the rest of their lives in the camps. Although psychological and spiritual domination are the preferred methods to achieve the goal of "thought reform," violence is used when these means fail.

The laogai, Wu said, also play an important role in the Chinese economy, producing goods for export to the West. "Just to give a glimpse of its importance," he continued, "forced labor from the laogai produces about one-third of China's tea and a significant amount of its cotton. About 60 percent of China's rubber vulcanizing chemicals are produced in a single laogai camp in Shanyang." He added that the laogai account for a substantial proportion of other Chinese exports, including steel pipes, artificial flowers, graphite, and hand tools.


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: china; moralabsolutes; prolife
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I felt the need to posts this in light of the upcoming Olympic games .

The greed of american corporations has allowed this country to gain power by looking the other way!

1 posted on 08/03/2008 4:37:49 PM PDT by stfassisi
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To: stfassisi; cgk; Coleus; cpforlife.org; narses; 8mmMauser

Pro-Life Ping


2 posted on 08/03/2008 4:39:10 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: stfassisi; 230FMJ; 50mm; 69ConvertibleFirebird; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]


3 posted on 08/03/2008 4:40:13 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: stfassisi

“The greed of american corporations has allowed this country to gain power by looking the other way! “

Don’t forget the consumers that can’t get enough of “china prices” for crap they dont really need.


4 posted on 08/03/2008 4:44:19 PM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: stfassisi

The Dying Rooms

Chinese Orphanages adopt a “zero population growth policy”

By Steven W. Mosher

Jan. 07, 2002


This is an old article - Jan. 7, 2002.

I don’t believe this is true anymore.

There is a HUGE problem with not enough little girls to some day be wives. In fact trying to adopt a little girl from China is VERY DIFFICULT today.


5 posted on 08/03/2008 4:47:43 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: driftdiver

“The greed of american corporations has allowed this country to gain power by looking the other way! “

Don’t forget the consumers that can’t get enough of “china prices” for crap they dont really need.


It’s not the corporations. It’s not the “customers”.

It’s about a society that elevates males over females to an extreme.


6 posted on 08/03/2008 4:49:10 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

“It’s not the corporations. It’s not the “customers”.”

If you’re referring to the economic growth taking place in China it is certainly about corporations and customers being greedy.

“It’s about a society that elevates males over females to an extreme.”

No, its about a government that kills babies, forced sterilizations, and forced abortions.

The male over female is a reaction by desperate parents to the govt atrocities. The asian cultures certainly value males more than females but its a deeper issue. Parents depend on their kids for support when they get old. Girls cannot support their parents.


7 posted on 08/03/2008 4:56:45 PM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: stfassisi
Of course, what is happening in China should not only be a lesson unto itself as to what has happened there, but what could happen/may be happening here. To be honest, if Americans themselves didn't feel the need to breed as much as they do, the same problem wouldn't be raising its ugly head here in America, that of having more children than one or two can properly rear and educate without government (taxpayer's) assistance in one form or another, including schooling and health care. I have never felt it is anyone else's obligation to pay a dime for my children's care, and chose to have two, and only two. With the two-income family more of a necessity than ever, we Americans need to take a close look at our own priorities in this regard, and not make the same errors of judgment. If we do, we will pay for our mistakes in human lives in the relatively near future. Socialism is only a very temporary salve for failure. It takes individual responsibility and accountability to avoid the worst that societies and their fragile economies can engineer for our future. If one fails at that, one should realize the ultimate cost alone.
8 posted on 08/03/2008 4:59:00 PM PDT by Melinda
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To: stfassisi
This is from 2002. It is an old article?

Orphanages in Eastern Europe are just as grim. In Russia handicapped children are shunted into psychiatric institutions to die among the insane. Orphaned children in Russia and Ukraine are preyed upon by pedophiles with access to the orphanages. Children in the poorest orphanages and in the institutions for "imbeciles" (which are often closed to foreigners) live without heat, with little food because the money to feed them is siphoned off by the corrupt or never paid by the govt. Children in my son's baby orphanage were fed sugar water for days one winter to survive when no money arrived from the govt to pay for food. In the summer the staffs bring vegetables and fruit from their tiny gardens to share with some of the children. Yogurt is like gold- so is a banana. I've seen the faces of kids who see these foods offered to them.

At least they have a roof over their heads- check out “The Children of Leningradsky” to see a documentary about Russian street children.

Humna Rights Watch has issued reports about both the Chinese "dying rooms; and about the entire Russian orphanage system, done in 1998. Romania where the poor dump their babies and handicapped kids in hospitals and abandon them, has not even permitted adoption for many years now. People are so poor in Moldova that human flesh is reportedly sold as food during the winter. You can imagine the fate of orphans in such a poor society. Street children are bought and sold by the hour in the Philippines and Cambodia.

Adopting from China and most of these other places has become an onerous process, unfortunately. Many good people are being turned away or turned off by the long wait.

9 posted on 08/03/2008 5:00:27 PM PDT by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: nmh
“”I don’t believe this is true anymore””

Who knows.Blessed Harry Wu is banned from China now.We do know that the evil government of China is now making money off of selling organs by killing people who speak out against them.

Whatever way you look at China US relations,it's all bad from both sides

10 posted on 08/03/2008 5:00:59 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: driftdiver

This is incredible. How can a communist country blame capitalisim?

Social engineering is at the root of communisim and socialisim. The state assumes it knows who should live or die.

How many generations must learn this lesson? I guess Stalin & Hitler, Pol Pot and even Mao himself weren’t enough. The Left ignores it’s own sad history, and can not see the death it reaps even now.


11 posted on 08/03/2008 5:01:17 PM PDT by Wiseghy ("You want to break this army? Then break your word to it.")
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To: stfassisi

Thank you for posting this.

May these people answer to our Lord for this.

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, that you do to me.


12 posted on 08/03/2008 5:03:14 PM PDT by Bigg Red
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To: silverleaf
Orphanages in Eastern Europe are just as grim. In Russia handicapped children are shunted into psychiatric institutions to die among the insane. Orphaned children in Russia and Ukraine are preyed upon by pedophiles with access to the orphanages. Children in the poorest orphanages and in the institutions for "imbeciles" (which are often closed to foreigners) live without heat, with little food because the money to feed them is siphoned off by the corrupt or never paid by the govt. Children in my son's baby orphanage were fed sugar water for days one winter to survive when no money arrived from the govt to pay for food. In the summer the staffs bring vegetables and fruit from their tiny gardens to share with some of the children. Yogurt is like gold- so is a banana. I've seen the faces of kids who see these foods offered to them.

Thank you for bringing these horrific atrocities of eastern Europe to this forum as well.

13 posted on 08/03/2008 5:07:55 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi

Harry Wu is a blessing.

What’s intersting though is that China, yes China is more of a CHRISTIAN nation that the U.S.. No kidding. The leaders are not Christian but the church is growing by leaps and bounds over there. Here we want to abolish God.


14 posted on 08/03/2008 5:11:27 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Wiseghy

“How can a communist country blame capitalisim?”

My guess is because the government in a communist country is never wrong.


15 posted on 08/03/2008 5:13:36 PM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: nmh
“Here we want to abolish God”

You're 100 percent on target and in a very slow and methodical fashion this is happening here.

16 posted on 08/03/2008 5:16:12 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: driftdiver
“If you’re referring to the economic growth taking place in China it is certainly about corporations and customers being greedy.”

You know nothing about China. You read too much propaganda. Corporations are not creating these orphanages. It is the government that has a one child policy because there are OODLES of people over there that often starve to death. So the government came along with the one child policy. I don't agree with it but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH CORPORATIONS!

It has everything to do with Communism. It keeps people down. As China becomes more capitalistic, they are RELAXING the one child policy when people can AFFORD to feed more than one child. That's a fact.

“It’s about a society that elevates males over females to an extreme.”

No, its about a government that kills babies, forced sterilizations, and forced abortions.

The GOVERNMENT does do that because they believe it is more “compassionate” than seeing people starve to death. I don't agree with it.

The male over female is a reaction by desperate parents to the govt atrocities. The asian cultures certainly value males more than females but its a deeper issue. Parents depend on their kids for support when they get old. Girls cannot support their parents.

You really don't understand the Chinese. It the GOVERNMENT forcing the abortions. The family would keep the girls but they are only limited in many areas to one child so they value th boy over the girl. Many a poor Chinese girl has pitched in to help support the family. The Chinese still have an extended family type outlook - that includes females.

Half of my family is Chinese. We go to China. I know what I am talking about.

17 posted on 08/03/2008 5:20:13 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: stfassisi

The progress the “underground church” is making in China is SHOCKING. They appreciate HOPE. They WANT FAITH in something. They KNOW socialism and communism isn’t right. They are EAGER to learn about Him.


18 posted on 08/03/2008 5:21:49 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: wagglebee

Of course I’m not the only person out here extremely disturbed by this situation and wondering HOW to help.
Is it possible for you or somebody to post links to any reputable organizations that help these orphanages ?

or is anybody able to give a “ballpark” estimate of how much it costs to adopt a child from these places ?

does anyone think it could be possible for groups to contribute towards the goal of adopting children one at a time for willing folk to raise ? ( I hope you can understand what I mean here....together we could bring out one child at a time )
I am willing to help out in anyway I can,the SAME as MANY OTHERS.
we just need some knowledge to get started.
thank you.
....i don’t believe for one minute that it’s a simple coincidence that i read this post—


19 posted on 08/03/2008 5:27:27 PM PDT by catroina54 (be disturbed BUT take action-)
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To: nmh

ummm so if the corporations weren’t involved in sending massive business to China how would their economy be doing?


20 posted on 08/03/2008 5:27:41 PM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: driftdiver
Don’t forget the consumers that can’t get enough of “china prices” for crap they dont really need.

And they don't last as long either. We have a Zenith made in the USA that has been in use everyday since 1983, it was made in December of 1982. Well, the stuff from Red China teaches us to have a disposable culture, unfortunately, in this article, they see people as disposable too. B-(
21 posted on 08/03/2008 5:29:09 PM PDT by Nowhere Man (Is Barak HUSSEIN Obama an Anti-Christ? - B.O. Stinks! (Robert Riddle))
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To: catroina54

I know several people who have adopted kids from china and/or russia. I think it costs 15-20k to adopt the child and you have to go there in person. That number may be out of date and their governments are making it harder to adopt. They’d rather the children die in the orphanage than admit they can’t care for them.


22 posted on 08/03/2008 5:32:55 PM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: Nowhere Man

“Well, the stuff from Red China teaches us to have a disposable culture, unfortunately, in this article, they see people as disposable too. B-( “

They have found a great way to dispose of all those political prisoners. you ever seen one of those “Bodies” exhibits?


23 posted on 08/03/2008 5:34:10 PM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: nmh
The progress the “underground church” is making in China is SHOCKING. They appreciate HOPE. They WANT FAITH in something. They KNOW socialism and communism isn’t right. They are EAGER to learn about Him.

Bless you for saying this!

It is through persecution that builds up the Church

24 posted on 08/03/2008 5:38:41 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: nmh

a homosexual or monosexual society in the making?


25 posted on 08/03/2008 6:18:25 PM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: stfassisi

It is through persecution that builds up the Church

YES it is.

They cling to Him.


26 posted on 08/03/2008 6:25:43 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: television is just wrong
a homosexual or monosexual society in the making?

I don't know ... I know one thing ... I wouldn't want to be an attractive female living amongst an army of hormone driven males ... .

27 posted on 08/03/2008 6:26:49 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: stfassisi

I don’t believe the situation is as grim today as was reported then. We have adopted two little girls from China and are waiting for our third adoption to come through. Our first adoption was in 1999 and things were pretty poor. However, in the last 9 years, through the help and support of many western charities, coupled with the fees paid to the orphanages by the families who adopt a child from them (which are used to help the children who are remaining), the standard of living for the children in the orphanages has raised considerably.

We are currently waiting for a little girl with special needs. We have received pictures of her through a charity that supports her. From the photos we have received, she looks healthy, as do the children who are in the orphanage with her (many of whom have special needs). The charity has started a school for the children in this orphanage, and they have done so in many orphanages across China. I also read in Christianity Today recently that the Church in China is sending its people into the orphanages to care for and teach the children.

Other charities have been involved in helping to build housing for foster families attached to the orphanages, so that the orphans can live in a family situation rather than in an institutional setting.

There are charities that send western doctors into China to treat the children in orphanages for cleft issues, heart conditions and other serious conditions requiring surgeries. These doctors take their vacations to go over and take care of the children for free.

There are hundreds of charities and thousands of regular people who have the orphans of China on their heart and work very hard to do everything they can to take care of them. And, there are many Chinese people doing the same.

If anyone is interested in helping Chinese orphans or orphans around the world, feel free to privately e-mail me and I will point you in the right direction to some fine organizations.

All is not totally rosy, but things are a heck of a lot better now than it was during the height of the “dying rooms” back in the 1990’s.


28 posted on 08/03/2008 6:47:20 PM PDT by keepitreal ("I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message. . . until I don't.")
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To: jahp; LilAngel; metmom; EggsAckley; Battle Axe; SweetCaroline; Grizzled Bear; goldfinch; B4Ranch; ..
MADE IN CHINA POTTERY STAMP

A ping list dedicated to exposing the quality, safety and security issues of anything “Made in China”.


Please FReepmail me if you would like to be on or off of the list.

(This can be a high volume ping list.)

29 posted on 08/03/2008 6:48:46 PM PDT by JACKRUSSELL
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To: driftdiver; stfassisi
“The greed of american corporations has allowed this country to gain power by looking the other way! “

Don’t forget the consumers that can’t get enough of “china prices” for crap they dont really need.

And certain greedy, power hungry politicians who traded technology for campaign money...

30 posted on 08/03/2008 6:50:31 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: nmh
Actually, I've seen no shortage of females, young and old, walking alone at night in Chinese cities well after 2am, carrying groceries home etc. It seemed far safer there than in any US city after midnight.

Also, China (both the government and the people) knows the one-child policy is bad... but there are few viable alternatives at the moment. They have more than 4 times our population in the exact same area (and less arable land for growing crops). Before the economic explosion began 15 years ago, simple demographics showed that they were looking at massive starvation within a decade. Thanks to the economic reforms, their farming techniques have improved, and now the pressure is somewhat lower. Thanks to that, and due to internal and external pressures, the One-Child policy is slowly improving. Forced abortions are almost unheard of in the cities, especially since the economic realities in the cities allow couples to pay the fines for having "extra" children. The rural and Western areas are improving rapidly too, since the one-child policy was amended to allow rural families to have a second child if the first is a female.

Selective abortion still happens (since many families are "traditional" and do still prefer boys for the reasons mentioned in the article, and the Western provinces often ignore Beijing's reforms until they're established as successful) but the situation IS improving overall.

(Lest one mistake me for a CCP apologist, please read my tagline. I just want to make sure that we focus on the real problems in China, not the ones that get the most PR that might not reflect the actual reality over there right now.)

Finally (as I ramble on), it is actually inappropriate to refer to China as Communist (even though they call themselves Communist, LOL). There is very little that follows the tenets of Marx and Engels there. The wealthy are not facing punitive taxation, nor are they trying to get the poor to have the same things as the rich.... or even the basic necessities. Just as their current economic reforms are not "Chinese Socialism" (they are capitalistic reforms), China also is not Communist, and the Chinese Communist Party rarely espouses any of the core ideals of Communism. The CCP is authoritarian. That is pretty much the ONLY facet of Communism that exists and functions there. (The CCP is mandated to be the only party allowed in regional or national positions by their Constitution, so getting their one-party system to change will take some doing... but its crucially necessary for their long-term success, without a doubt.)

31 posted on 08/03/2008 6:58:51 PM PDT by Teacher317 (Thank you Dith Pran for showing us what Communism brings)
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To: Teacher317

Actually, I’ve seen no shortage of females, young and old, walking alone at night in Chinese cities well after 2am, carrying groceries home etc. It seemed far safer there than in any US city after midnight.

It’s the surbaurban area where you will see strict compliance with the “one child policy”. The cities are prosperous and why they wink at it.

Also, China (both the government and the people) knows the one-child policy is bad... but there are few viable alternatives at the moment. They have more than 4 times our population in the exact same area (and less arable land for growing crops). Before the economic explosion began 15 years ago, simple demographics showed that they were looking at massive starvation within a decade. Thanks to the economic reforms, their farming techniques have improved, and now the pressure is somewhat lower. Thanks to that, and due to internal and external pressures, the One-Child policy is slowly improving. Forced abortions are almost unheard of in the cities, especially since the economic realities in the cities allow couples to pay the fines for having “extra” children. The rural and Western areas are improving rapidly too, since the one-child policy was amended to allow rural families to have a second child if the first is a female.

There is improvement in the rural areas. In cities where they can work and support them is why abortion is “unheard of”.

Selective abortion still happens (since many families are “traditional” and do still prefer boys for the reasons mentioned in the article, and the Western provinces often ignore Beijing’s reforms until they’re established as successful) but the situation IS improving overall.

Yes ...

(Lest one mistake me for a CCP apologist, please read my tagline. I just want to make sure that we focus on the real problems in China, not the ones that get the most PR that might not reflect the actual reality over there right now.)

Finally (as I ramble on), it is actually inappropriate to refer to China as Communist (even though they call themselves Communist, LOL). There is very little that follows the tenets of Marx and Engels there. The wealthy are not facing punitive taxation, nor are they trying to get the poor to have the same things as the rich.... or even the basic necessities. Just as their current economic reforms are not “Chinese Socialism” (they are capitalistic reforms), China also is not Communist, and the Chinese Communist Party rarely espouses any of the core ideals of Communism. The CCP is authoritarian. That is pretty much the ONLY facet of Communism that exists and functions there. (The CCP is mandated to be the only party allowed in regional or national positions by their Constitution, so getting their one-party system to change will take some doing... but its crucially necessary for their long-term success, without a doubt.)

You are so RIGHT!

The dirty little secret is the Chinese are MORE CAPITALISTIC than we are in the U.S.. It’s simply convenient to look DOWN on them so we feel better about marching towards SOCIALISM.

Thank you for the exchange.


32 posted on 08/03/2008 7:05:42 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

Thanks for a thoughtful post on China. A few additional points: I’ve learned that the one-child policy does not apply to recognized “minorities” such as Tibetans. In addition, couples whose parents are both “only kids” may legally have two children. And most of the time, especially in the cities, the sanction imposed for having an additional child is loss of some economic benefit, like a salary cut, no promotion, loss of welfare benefit, etc. Family pressure also plays a role.


33 posted on 08/03/2008 7:12:22 PM PDT by compound w
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To: driftdiver

I think going to China in person to adopt is the best thing for all concerned. It’s a long and expensive trip, but our trips to China to adopt our daughters were so important to both them and to us. From our travels and stays in China we were able to see where they were from and to get a feeling for the people of their provinces. When one of my daughters asks about China and its people I am able to speak to them with real knowledge. We are able to explain the poverty that forced their mothers to abandon them. We are also able to tell them about the old ladies who fussed over them in the streets and all the people who patted them on the head and called them beautiful. I can tell them about the smells of food in the streets and the color of the sky. And with each story I tell, they have a stronger sense of self and of their history, which is so important to them.

I don’t fault the Chinese for requiring we travel to adopt. It is the best thing for all concerned.


34 posted on 08/03/2008 7:12:55 PM PDT by keepitreal ("I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message. . . until I don't.")
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To: driftdiver
They have found a great way to dispose of all those political prisoners. you ever seen one of those “Bodies” exhibits?

It came to the Carnegie Science Center here in Pittsburgh earlier this year and there were some protests over it because of the prisoner issue.
35 posted on 08/03/2008 7:13:31 PM PDT by Nowhere Man (Is Barak HUSSEIN Obama an Anti-Christ? - B.O. Stinks! (Robert Riddle))
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To: Teacher317

That last post of mine to nmh should have gone to you also!


36 posted on 08/03/2008 7:14:12 PM PDT by compound w
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To: keepitreal
“”All is not totally rosy, but things are a heck of a lot better now than it was during the height of the “dying rooms” back in the 1990’s.””

???! Please explain how better is something God would approve of?

37 posted on 08/03/2008 7:16:06 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi

I don’t understand your question. What are you trying to get me to say? Or what are you trying to get across?

There are orphans all over this world, many of whom were abandoned due to poverty and other issues. Does God approve of that? No. But he does approve of people stepping up and helping to make things better. If you think God doesn’t approve of that, I’m sorry.


38 posted on 08/03/2008 7:20:20 PM PDT by keepitreal ("I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message. . . until I don't.")
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To: stfassisi; Teacher317; nmh
I don't trust Human Rights Watch, a group that I believe claims torture is occuring at Gitmo. With regard to the orphanages, I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes. But I have to take the whole article with skepticism when I read the following:

Mei Ming--whose name means "No Name" in Chinese...

Mei Ming is a name like "Mary Smith." "Mei" almost always means "beautiful" or "little sister." "Ming" is simply a family name. So, respectfully, I'm thinking there's a good deal of propaganda in this article.

39 posted on 08/03/2008 7:21:10 PM PDT by compound w
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To: compound w

Mei Ming—whose name means “No Name” in Chinese...

Actually, it does mean that.

No kidding.


40 posted on 08/03/2008 7:22:46 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

As you know, nmh, meaning depends on the characters and the tones. In all likelihood, “no name” was not the intent of whomever named her.


41 posted on 08/03/2008 7:25:23 PM PDT by compound w
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To: nmh

Don’t you have to see the characters to know the meaning?


42 posted on 08/03/2008 7:26:19 PM PDT by keepitreal ("I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message. . . until I don't.")
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To: keepitreal

No. The translation is good enough.

I have an expert at home - 100% Chinese and believe it or not - not a Communist and appalled at abortion.


43 posted on 08/03/2008 7:33:54 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. I never implied in my comment anything about communism nor abortion.

Have a nice evening.


44 posted on 08/03/2008 7:38:30 PM PDT by keepitreal ("I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message. . . until I don't.")
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To: keepitreal

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. I never implied in my comment anything about communism nor abortion.

Have a nice evening.


I didn’t take it that way!

I find it amusing that OTHERS, not you, like to broad brush ordinary Chinese over there as monsters. The truth is the Chinese LOVE kids. They are typically very tight as a family. The Chinese are typically very conservative.


45 posted on 08/03/2008 7:43:00 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: JACKRUSSELL; All

Thanks for the ping. Horrific article. Interesting, educational thread. Thanks to all contributors.


46 posted on 08/03/2008 7:55:05 PM PDT by PGalt
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To: driftdiver

thank you.


47 posted on 08/03/2008 8:39:34 PM PDT by catroina54
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To: stfassisi

My heart can’t get by the subtitle.....

Chinese Orphanages adopt a “zero population growth policy”

Maybe I can read it tomorrow.


48 posted on 08/03/2008 9:59:29 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: wagglebee
Pinged from Terri Dailies

8mm


49 posted on 08/04/2008 3:11:26 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: stfassisi

In my haste this morning, I pinged and gave credit to wagglebee for this thread and as oversight, failed to ping to the thread as yours. Sorry.

St. Francis is my favorite Saint...

8mm


50 posted on 08/04/2008 3:54:37 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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