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To: kosta50; ModelBreaker; Alex Murphy

Kosta wrote: “More of the banal Paul trumps Gospels nonsense.”

I think Yancey’s key point is not the “Gospels vs. St. Paul”, but a challenge to Evangelicals to read the Gospel with St. Paul.

If Paul says, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” (Ephesians 1:4-6). It seems that for us to be predestined in Christ before creation as his children, God would surely first have had to have in mind the Incarnation of him in whom we were to be predestined.

Besides, the Prologue of the Gospel of John doesn’t speak of Redemption when speaking of the “Word (Logos) was made flesh (sarx)” (John 1:14). Rather, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name”. (John 1:12)


12 posted on 08/06/2008 10:39:31 AM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia; ModelBreaker; Alex Murphy
If Paul says, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...

Christ didn't teach that and Paul doesn't give any OT reference to back up his claim.

Christ says in no uncertain terms that he was "sent except [or only] for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat 15:24), and he also explains what that means: no Gentiles and not even Samaritans (cf Mat 10:5-6). NT makes it equally clear that the witness to the Gentiles was not planned but a result of Israel's rejection of Christ (cf Act 13:46)— basically a "do or die" step.

The Old Testament surely doesn't seem to suggest that God predisgtined Israelites to fail, or that he wanted to be the God of the Gentiles. To the contrary. God of the OT is constantly sending his prophets to get Israel to come back to him. He makes no effort to convert the Gentiles, not even Ishmaelites (Arabas).

Let's face it, Paul had to do what he did because the Church was expelled from Israel, and, depsite his miracles, the Jews overall did not believe in Christ, nor for that matter that he even existed.

The Jewish rabbi by the name of Trypho is quoted as saying by Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD) [emphases added] "You follow an empty rumor and make a Christ [Savior] for yourselves ... If he was born and lived somewhere he is entirely unknown."–Justin Martyr the Phliosopher, Dialogue with Trypho

So, it's pretty obvious why Paul had to take up his swork to the Gentiles, and it wasn't any npredestination but Israel's rejection of Christ. The ministry to the Gentiles is simply not in the OT or in the Gospels. It is a knee-jerk reaction to the realities that ensued.

34 posted on 08/06/2008 1:24:28 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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