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To: koinonia
Regarding law--Jesus and St. Paul are speaking about the legalism of the Jewish law, but not the divine law

Now you are walking on thin ice, differentiating between The Ten Commandments and the rest of the Law given to Moses (613 commandments in all; the Jews know them as the mitzvot; they are things they are to do or obstain from doing).

Christ gave us only two of "his" commandments, as they would include all 613 mitzvot.

Don't forget that the entire Torah (aka the Law) is in the Bible. Are you saying that somehow Leviticus is not from God? After all, the Jews and most Evangelicals believe that God dictated to Moses the entire Torah, word by word.

Are you saying parts of the Torah are not true? You never identified yourself as either a Catholic, Anglican or whatever, so I don't know, but I would say that wehatever your denomination is questioning the Bible is not one of its teachings.

Is this your private belief and if so, why don't you state is as such?

I love when a discussion come to this!

147 posted on 08/14/2008 1:26:09 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
You wrote that the West fails to see that law and love are essentially different and mutually excusive, and that law cannot express or replace love.

But Jesus clearly states, "If you love me, keep my commandments... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:15, 23)

Jesus says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-19)

In fact in the Sermon on the Mount he goes on to confirm the commandments and even further them--the teaching of Christ is even more demanding than the ten commandments.

For example, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:21-22).

He does the same for adultery, extending it to chastity of the mind; divorce; oaths; justice; love of neighbor, extending it to include enemies.

My point is that murder and adultery and false oaths and revenge are clearly against the teaching of Jesus. Jesus demands not only external observance ("Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven"), but even more, purity of intention and heart in observing them (hence not legalism). Our Lord and St. Paul never dispense from the natural law, the 10 commandments as such; and, as far as I can see, they never imply that a Christian is obliged to 613 norms of the mitzvoth as expressed in the Torah. As St. Paul points out, “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.” (Galatians 5:3). And if that is the case, "Christ shall profit you nothing...[and] ye are fallen from grace." (5:2,4) So we are justified by faith, not by the law.

Yet if we break the 10 commandments we are not justified: “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Help me out. There has to be a distinction somewhere. I don't think you are saying "all or nothing"--Do we have to observe the mitzvoth in its entirety? Or no law at all, not even the 10 commandments? Is it faith alone (no law)? Or merits and good works alone (legalism)?

What is the Orthodox position on all of this?

148 posted on 08/14/2008 5:58:08 PM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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