Even the Devil can cite scripture for his purpose, this proves nothing. My favorite picture of him:
ROTFLMAO!
Posted on 08/19/2008 9:24:13 AM PDT by Terriergal
Rick Warren Takes On His Critics: "I'm a Big Target"
August 15, 2008 8:03 AM
In another part of our interview with best-selling author and pastor Rick Warren, I asked him about some of the controversies surrounding his church.
I asked him, for instance, about the criticism that he offers a sort of glib, new age Christianity. Rev. Bob DeWaay, author of a book criticizing Warren’s approach, says “the Bible’s theme is about redemption and atonement, not finding meaning and solving problems.” How does he respond to the charge that he offers a shallow 40-day approach to Christianity?
"I flatly deny it," Warren says. "The average message I teach on a weekend contains fourteen passages of scripture. I am a multi-generation pastor which many of these critics don't. I am a Bible scholar. I've had six years of Greek and Hebrew. They don’t know what they’re talking about. And what happens is you often get pigeon-holed because if a church is large then people tend to think it’s shallow and that’s not true. All large churches are not alike. All mega-churches are not alike."
“The truth is there’s a lot of people who don’t know what’s going on and they read second- and third- and fourth-hand reports which are incorrect,” Warren says. “There have been things written for instance, ‘Oh Rick Warren, the Hawaiian-shirted pastor.’ I haven’t worn a Hawaiian shirt in two years but that’s still being reported around the nation.”
Continued Warren, “there are all kinds of caricatures. I’m criticized by people who are either ignorant or they’re jealous. And the fact is were seeing God make a difference in individual lives, thousands and thousands of lives. I started this church with one person, my wife. Today there over a 100,000 names on our church roll. It’s the size of a city. We’re a really big target. And when you get invited to do an interview like this of course that creates all kinds of people who want to criticize you and when you’re trying to promote the common good and when you’re trying to promote civility there are a lot of people who have a stake in being uncivil. They make their living polarizing and so if I were simply just the left than the right would criticize me. And if I were just the right than the left would criticize me but I’m trying to stake out a common middle ground here so I get it from both sides and that’s the price of impact.”
There have also been reports of other churches trying to follow Warren’s example and create “Purpose Driven” and Saddleback-esque churches but losing parishioners.
“I would like to disavow a lot of the things that are done in the name of ‘Purpose Driven’ or done in the name of Saddleback, because I’m not responsible for everybody else’s church,” Warren said. “And some guys are just poor leaders. And they do things and say “we’re doing it like Saddleback,” but really, I would disavow what they’re doing”
That said, Warren continued, “for every example of negativity I could give you a hundred positivity. We’ve trained now almost 500,000 church leaders around the world in 162 countries. I’ve been training leaders for twenty-eight years, business leaders, government leaders, church leaders. In a couple weeks I’m going to the nation of Kenya where I’ve been invited to give an all day seminar on leadership to the entire parliament,…we just finished a thirty day tour of Latin America.”
“I’m a big target,” Warren said, “It doesn’t bother me. It’s like…during the Civil War the guy who wore the Union blue top and the Confederate blue bottom and he got shot at from both sides. That’s just part of trying to be a bridge builder, a moderator, a voice of civility. Our civilization is becoming increasingly uncivil. We’re becoming ruder. Were not getting nicer to each other were getting ruder. And some how we have to figure out as the world becomes more pluralistic -- to quote that great theologian Rodney King, ‘Can’t we all just get along?’ We don’t have to agree. We don’t have to compromise our beliefs. We don’t have to water down our convictions but we do have to be civil. And why do I believe that? Because Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself, in fact he said love your enemies. So I am commanded to love people that I disagree with.”
“It’s not easy to be criticized,” I said to him.
“Nobody likes to be criticized,” Warren said.
“And it seems like it might bother you a little bit,” I said. “You are a huge success and your good works are undeniable and I’m not trying to take away from that. But I sense in this interview that these people get under your skin a little bit.”
Said Warren, “people get under my skin for about five seconds. I consider both praise and criticism, it’s kind of like chewing gum. You chew on it for a little while but you don’t swallow because ultimately I’m living for Jesus Christ. That’s my goal. And my philosophy when criticism comes at me, if it’s true: listen and learn from it. If it’s untrue ignore it and forget it.”
“And ultimately realize God is the judge of your life,” Warren concluded. “Jesus said ‘Beware when all men speak well of you’ and I would point out that Jesus was not criticized by the world he was criticized by the religious leaders and 27:39 the criticism I get is far greater from people who have staked out a very narrow position and want me to kowtow to that position rather than the poor, the sick, the needy, the helpless -- the people Jesus really cared about.”
- jpt
Does that sound like a Pharisee or what?
Well, I’ll give him this: He’s great on platitudes.
Yes, he is a fat man, but he’s also a RINO. Never seen a thin RINO.
That much Greek and Hebrew can't help but make you a Bible Scholar.
I'd like to see the kind of home he lives in.
Even the Devil can cite scripture for his purpose, this proves nothing. My favorite picture of him:
ROTFLMAO!
>>That much Greek and Hebrew can’t help but make you a Bible Scholar.>>
Well, I like Greek in one sense, and I know several Jews. Can I be a scholar now?
Well, Paul was a pretty rude guy. Rude enough to get thrown in Jail, beaten, and finally martyred. So too were the other Apostles.
Jesus told us that the Christian message would set father against son etc. That they would hate us, because they hate Him. Modern pastors have to get used to the notion that the Gospel is rude. It is not tolerant of sin. It does not celebrate sin. It tells people that they are going to Hell unless they take certain steps.
That is rude. Polite people aren't supposed to say things like that. If you make it "not rude" it isn't the Gospel. You can say it with a smile and with a soft voice. But it is still rude.
Pointing out what abortion does to babies is rude--there's no way around it. Either you pretend it is something it isn't or you point out what it is. Pointing out that a politician is in favor of infanticide is rude. How can it not be? You are accusing someone of supporting the killing of babies. You can say it in a soft voice. But it is still rude. True. But rude.
Choose. Rude or Not-Christian.
>>Choose. Rude or Not-Christian.>>
Modern women rely on logic, which is their weakness. Modern men rely on their emotion, which is their weakness. If people want to rely on their weaknesses to make decisions, that is their choice to remember all of their lives. However, I agree with you. If the truth is labelled as rude, put me down for a double dose.
I left a church that transformed to Purp Driv.
The issue is that even though they “use” multiple scripture, the sermons are man-centered, and don’t call for repentance or even clearly describe sin....
The concept is to appeal to fallen, sinful taste or inclination to obey God, which will never happen without Holy Spirit Regeneration. It is impossible for unregenerate man to please God, so what can unrepentant people possibly gain from being protected from the TRUTH about themselves? (hell....)
If you go to his Pastor website, you can see the self help sermon topics which lead one to think that we can fix our selves and make ourselves acceptable, when in truth we can not. There is no good thing in us, in our flesh, and what good there is, is from and of the LORD alone.
Compare to this comment that he let stand...
“You are a huge success and your good works are undeniable”....
He has often been heard promoting himself. This is not a characteristic of a servant of God.
On this same pastors website he has advised(2006) that it may be necessary to wait for dissenters of Purp Driv to go away or die before the pastor/c.e.o. is “successful”...
He knows he wrote that, and many more things like it. Is that the voice of the Good Shepherd, or a wicked underling?
I haven’t even mentioned his background connection to New Age leadership, such as Ken Blanchard, or his wife’s recent speaking at a Robert Schuller hybrid spiritual event....
People who defend him without considering his assault on Biblical integrity, are talking to themselves, because that is the bottom line of his offenses, very well outlined in Bob Dewaay’s book which is an invaluable resource. Read it and move on in the LORD.
The Bible doesn’t change. For a shock back to essential reality, read some Charles Spurgeon,
http://www.spurgeon.org/mainpage.htm
called the “Prince of Preachers” in his day, or try on some wonderfully deep and clean truth at the Puritan Library...
http://www.puritanlibrary.com/
Soli Deo Gloria!
“I would like to disavow a lot of the things that are done in the name of ‘Purpose Driven’ or done in the name of Saddleback, because I’m not responsible for everybody else’s church,” Warren said. “And some guys are just poor leaders. And they do things and say “we’re doing it like Saddleback,” but really, I would disavow what they’re doing”
What I want to know is WHAT THINGS DOES HE DISAVOW?
He's already endorsed everything in Dan Southerland's awful book TRANSITIONING which teaches people to think of anyone who opposes your program as "Sanballat" (the pagan "leader from hell") and (ahem) "encourage" them to leave.
Here is another example of him pandering to both sides. They can point and say "See? He doesn't agree with the mean stuff that's done to Bible Believing Christians who just want to stick to Scripture!" When he's said nothing specific about that at all!
This paragraph I found very ... shockingly ridiculous and prideful:
"The average message I teach on a weekend contains fourteen passages of scripture. I am a multi-generation pastor which many of these critics don't. I am a Bible scholar. I've had six years of Greek and Hebrew. They don’t know what they’re talking about. And what happens is you often get pigeon-holed because if a church is large then people tend to think it’s shallow and that’s not true. All large churches are not alike. All mega-churches are not alike."
All he needs are some wide phylacteries and long tassels. Dunno if those coordinate well with flip flops.
And yes he will forever be known as the Hawaiian shirt wearing pastor... because he DID wear them for a long time. I noticed he wasn't wearing them anymore, but didn't think it important in the first place. It was just a shorthand way of saying he wears casual clothes. But of course, THAT is the point he responds to to discredit his critics, rather than responding with Scripture. He points mostly to his own pedigree and accomplishments proof of his 'good teaching.' Passing a course is hardly evidence that he is using what he learned correctly. How many 'doctors' went through medical school and are now performing abortions?
I agree!
You want us women to rely on our emotions???
Wow. first time I’ve heard that!
:-)
But yes we rely on our weaknesses. Anything in ourselves is our weakness!
We must rely on the Word. (oh but Rick Warren uses on average 14 passages from the Word in each of his sermons! waaah! balderdash!)
I took two years of theological studies (amounting to probably what you’d get at a four year Bible College)
I guess that makes me 33 to 67 percent of the scholar Rick Warren is!
“All he needs are some wide phylacteries and long tassels. Dunno if those coordinate well with flip flops.”
Yes, I think that would work.....out in California...
My family’s exodus from our church is not unlike the scenarios played out throughout the land.....
Whether originating from the Pastor who wants a “growing” congregation, or from the leadership at a church, the quickest way to shake things up is to start PDL for 40 days of non-sense, and switch to a performance and man-centered Worship service and Church emphasis...
This “use” of multiple scriptures during the sermon is deceptive in that the sermon isn’t about the Scriptures, but the Scriptures are used, in some reprehensible version like The Message, or other disreputable form, to rather underwrite the man-centered assertions contained in the sermon....
There is a big difference between exposition of the WORD of GOD and “using” Scripture.
Warren always objects to being criticized but he clearly doesn’t answer to the Body of Christ as far as I can see, and is uncharitable to his critics, attacking them personally instead of speaking to the issue in a serious and humble manner. It is no wonder the rhetoric gets high at times...
The attitude of nearly all his defenders is that we have no right to be critical of him.
After the change in preaching, and worship, comes the cancellation of Sunday School classes, initiation of small home groups where Bible study is discouraged and people are encouraged to get to know each other in “fun” activities, as opposed to getting together in the WORD; emphasis on “community”, self help and works....rather than Bible knowledge,(which is deemed too much to expect from “immature believers”) prayer and living in an effort to confront sin in our own lives and walk in holiness....did I say Holiness? What is that?
My pastor even brought in a 3rd rate emergent author to speak to the church and to compel the church to read his silly and confusing book...which book was endorsed by Brian McLaren..... and the pastor began to be enamored of Henri Nouwen writings...and so on....
When the pastor would not hear my Biblical concerns and objections (I had been a Sunday School teacher and led the prayer ministry), we left. My friends and associates were unable to see what had happened to the church or themselves, and no longer have time for me...This was 2 years ago.
Since that time, we found a reformed Baptist church where the preaching is salient and nourishing. It is much smaller, the first church being around 1500-2000, and this, less that 75....
We are in a fight.
We need to be stalwart in the Gospel, in Holiness and devotion to our KING and LORD.
It’s good to talk with a fellow servant.
There are free courses at Reformed Theological Seminary through iTunes,
http://itunes.rts.edu/
that you may be interested in as well (having seen your reading in theology) which include a series by J I Packer on the History and theology of the Puritans...
He is very dry and funny and what a privilege to sit in a lecture, albeit virtual, of this servant of the LORD.
We have to keep studying, speaking, and remembering to rejoice in the LORD to keep up our strength, because much of the stuff that swirls in the wind around our heads is depressing, and I personally never thought i would live to see this...at all....
bp
I've seen bigger.
Nancy Pelosi went over on her own trip.
I consider that Treason by the Constitution.
One would think that hopefully knowing better from his own POW exprerience in Vietnam, McCain might have at least chided Warren for it. But we evidently don't take those things seriously anymore, if we ever did.
From which modern Judaism has developed.
Thanks! Yes your story is very similar to every other one that I have seen. In my church we were told it was seeker sensitive up front. But I didn’t know what that REALLY meant. It sounded good...(boy was I naive!)
What denomination was your church? Mine was Evangelical Covenant and we have learned the entire denomination is awash with unbiblical nonsense. Emergent, social justice, purpose driven, contemplative spirituality...
Thanks for the links, I will check it out!
My Denomination was Christian, a largely Midwestern group that sprang from the Second Great Awakening and the Campbell-Stone movement that emphasized the Restoration of Christianity back to the Bible alone for Doctrine and practice of faith...so much for that.....
There are a lot of Christian churches around here, and they are independent congregations so you can find something like what I left, to a little country Christian church still preaching the Truth or showing Andy Griffith videos for Sunday School........
There are a lot of happy, ignorant people out there who have no idea of these onslaughts against the faith, and when they are apprised of the situation, they almost always run away screaming, unwilling to face the truth and pressure of the need to act......
What a sad state.
Wake up and strengthen yourselves in the Word, Christians!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.