Replies

Thank you, Freeplancer.

Not sure where I insulted you, but I grant you your right to believe it.

Here’s my problem, and it’s the same as many a poster here on the subject of Mormonism. Respectfully, I ask you how a Mormon can reconcile the beliefs put forth in the BOM with the Holy Bible?

In other words, when Joseph Smith claimed that he was greater than Jesus, how can a Mormon who believes the Holy Bible stand by it or justify it? Who’s the greatest? To me, the claim is a slap in the face as a Christian.

When God professes to be The Almighty, is He right or wrong? I ask because I don’t understand how Mormons can believe that God ATTAINED godhood. To whose status (or what god’s status) did HE, GOD ALMIGHTY, have to attain?

You see the problem I have?

I’m just looking for a straight answer and, believe me, there’s no insult towards you or ANY Mormon. NONE. YOU ARE LOVED AND YOUR SOUL IS SOUGHT AFTER BY JESUS CHRIST.

Please, if you will, relate how the Mormon church answers the claims put forth above. I would love to know what is actually believed because when I ask - when I post verbatim quotes of Mormons or Joseph Smith himself - I only get some ugly response.

Your post IS appreciated, Freeplancer.

Kind Regards,

“I just wish that you were more tolerant and less insulting.”

I’ve thought about your statement, Freeplancer.

At what cost should a person be “more tolerant and less insulting”?

At the cost of thousand precious souls? One hundred? Ten?

Even one?

At what cost should I say, “You know, I think I’ll keep the Truth to myself”?

‘Til the day I die, I hope I speak the Truth to YOU and to everyone else.

Let me ask you, will you at least try to see what we all are getting at? Will you try to answer the questions and put the Holy Bible up against the BOM just for a minute?

If you can’t do it, will you at least ask yourself why it’s too difficult to do so? If your belief is in Jesus Christ alone, it should not be hard to do at all.

Will you try to look to us as your friends who are trying to point you to Truth out of love for our Lord, who commands us so, out of love for you, and not your enemy?

If you can’t defend it (Mormonism), why not give a look at Jesus alone?

You state that you were of age when you joined the Mormon church. Did you have any religious background before then?

Finally, what does “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me,” mean in the Mormon way of thinking?

Thanks for any and all responses, Freeplancer.

No thanks, I don’t care to debate our religions.

Neither did Joseph Smith...

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

I just wish that you were more tolerant and less insulting.

Yeah... me too!

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI
HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY

CHAPTER 14

An angel tells Nephi of the blessings and cursings to fall upon the Gentiles—There are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil—The saints of God in all nations are persecuted by the great and abominable church—The apostle John shall write concerning the end of the world. Between 600 and 592 B.C.

1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repented not must perish.
6 Therefore, woe be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.
16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—
17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.
20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.
23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.
24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.
27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was john, according to the word of the angel.
28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me.
30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.

...I don’t have a problem with your beliefs. I respect you for following god and recognizing Jesus as our savior, and I respect that you love your denomination... [Freeplancer to BR]

Oh, so that's what you call those Mormon missionary door-to-door convos about the universal “apostasy” and restoration -- ”respect”, eh?
So that's what you call the Pearl of Great Price LDS “scriptural” description about other sects -- "respect":

Joseph Smith, Verses 18-20:
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join...I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join NONE of them, for they were ALL wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an ABOMINATION in his sight; that those professors were ALL corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
20 He again forbade me to join with ANY of them...

Please note the sweeping “absolutes” claimed by Smith with the words of “None…All…All…All…Any” (Anybody see any caveats issued there? I don’t)

With just a few paragraphs, Smith tried to:
...reduce EVERY creed of Christendom to ashes...
...slander the character of EVERY professing believer to that of a "corrupt" status;
...place a large "boycott" sign on every non-Mormon church: you "MUST... [NOT] JOIN ANY!

(1) Wanna explain how Smith had such broad-sweeping powers of moral judgmentalism that he could label EVERY Christian “professor” – “professor” as in one who professes beliefs not an academic “professor” – as being absolutely “corrupt?”

(2) Wanna explain how Smith could openly bash all Christian sects and simultaneously attempt to dig a spiritual graveyard for not only every 19th century Christian church, but the ones that had been around for the previous 15- to perhaps 19 centuries?

(a) Mormon founder: What’s amazing to me, then, is after Smith has taken the initiative to describe the entirety of Christianity for 14 to 15 to 18 centuries in such a manner, who is it in Mormon eyes that is deemed as the villainized “anti?” Supposedly, to hear Smith tell it, this vision occurred in 1820…so it can’t be claimed by Mormons that Smith was simply responding to the so-called 1830s “persecution” of Mormons.
(b) Second-generation Mormons: Since it was an entirely later full generation of Mormons who decided to place this "vision" as LDS canonized “Scripture,” it can’t be said that this was just Smith’s mere “opinion.”
(c ) Contemporary Mormons: Since contemporary Mormons tithe on this language to be spread world-wide in millions of imprinted messages (in translated Books of Mormon; in LDS curricula; in LDS books & articles, etc.)…the actual open dissing and spiritual destruction continues.