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My apologies. Yes, tell me about your thoughts (or perhaps your understanding of the “official” view) on purgatory. The connection here is that there are apparently, according to RCC teaching, some departed believers that are being held in purgatory for an unspecified period. There are also those who have gone on to heaven, with Christ.

Is Mary in heaven or purgatory? Are others you would “speak” to (as opposed to “pray” to) also in purgatory or must it only be to those in heaven?

And I am still thinking about the angels matter.

But, if you don’t mind, your comments would not sidetrack this conversation. And, there are no trick questions here. Unfortunately, I must leave for the evening, but I’ll check back tomorrow to see what you think. Grace be with you.

Well, there are a few reasons purgatory seems to fit well. First, Revelation states nothing unclean can enter the new Jerusalem. (Rev. 21:27) Further, we know the stain of sin affects each and every human. Adam's sin is passed to us all, with Baptism cleansing us. However, our own personal sins stick with us. Baptism gives us a chance, but we constantly fall short of Him. So, then, what happens when we die? Granted, in Catholic and Orthodox belief, the Sacrament of Penance might allow you to die in a state of grace, but let's assume you pass away without having a chance at a final confession. I don't know enough about Protestant thought to comment on reconciliation, so I'll leave that for you.

So, once we have passed on, what happens to the stains of sin that we have placed on ourselves? "Nothing unclean can enter" God's presence, and Heaven is certainly God's presence. Time and again, the Scripture speaks of "purification by fire." This is what we call purgatory - the final purification before we enter Heaven.

Also, the Scripture teaches that the living can atone for the dead. (2 Macc 12:46). If the dead are in Heaven, what good does atonement do? Same question if they are already condemned.

There are also those who have gone on to heaven, with Christ.

The length of Purgatory depends on the sins of the departed. My assumption is that the time a 12 year old spends in purgatory is markedly shorter than someone who lived a life of pleasure and sincerely repented only on their deathbed - however, that is purely conjecture. The purification necessary is known to God alone.

Is Mary in heaven or purgatory?

There are some who have gone to Heaven without the need for purification. Elijah is probably the clearest example. Mary is another - the Church teaches that she was bodily assumed into Heaven. Assumption is not the same as ascension - the former is passive, the latter active. Only God can ascend to Heaven - it is an exercise of His Own power. Bringing others into Heaven is His assumption of them. You'll notice that, for all the importance we Catholics place on Saints and their stories and their relics (think St. Peter's Cathedral, built over St. Peter's tomb), we don't have any such place for Mary. Why? Because there is no history of her having been buried.

Are others you would “speak” to (as opposed to “pray” to) also in purgatory or must it only be to those in heaven?

This one is tricky, and I'm not quite sure. I imagine those souls in purgatory can hear us the same as those in Heaven - purgatory is a part of God's dominion just as much as Heaven and Earth. Saints who are canonized are "known" to be in Heaven. It is quite a process for a person to be declared a Saint. Private devotions (for example, to departed family members) are certainly allowed, but I imagine the process of purification makes one more righteous. Thus, the entire rationale for asking the assistance of Saints is nullified. Souls in purgatory are likely just as righteous as I am. As we know with God, it is quality, not quantity.

You've gotten me pondering a number of things. I look forward to continuing this discussion tomorrow. Pax Christi.