Posted on 10/21/2008 6:22:38 AM PDT by Ottofire
I think many of them do it without even recognizing fully that they're doing it. That's my experience in talking with them about it. That's why it's such a dangerous doctrine to support in the Church. The average lay person around the world cannot possibly separate veneration from adoration in their mind or heart, in most cases, I would think. It's quite easy to cross the line - and Benedict's prayer shows that.
Mary doesn't "lead us" to Jesus. She isn't "mediator" of anything. This is completely without support anywhere in Scripture and is solely an invention of the Church (and it's a late, medieval invention, too, it has no basis in the tradition or practice the early Church). All Mary can do is act as an example of someone's submission to God's will and responding positively to his grace. But Scripture clearly says that there is one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy), and Hebrews lays it out too, that Jesus is our great high priest and is the sole mediator between man and God. We don't need any mediator other than Christ - no priests, no saints, no one but Jesus.
In addition to the lunacies you point out, aren’t these the same sorts of people who send money to people like Joel Osteen, Jimmy Swaggert and Oral Roberts? Is there something about protestants that makes them blind to charlatans?
Indeed...
Mary doesn't "lead us" to Jesus.
I beg to differ.
This is completely without support anywhere in Scripture and is solely an invention of the Church (and it's a late, medieval invention, too, it has no basis in the tradition or practice the early Church).
It's not any more "medieval" than the Council of Nicea is "medieval."
Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race.... And so it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by Mary's obedience. For what the virgin Eve bound fast by her refusal to believe, this the Virgin Mary unbound by her belief.
-St. Irenaeus of Lyon (d. 202)
From Saint Ephrem
Thou alone, O Lord and Thy mother are they who in every respect are wholly beautiful; for there is no spot in Thee, O Lord, nor any stain in Thy mother.
-St. Ephrem (d. 373)
Hear prayers, provide special intercession as the Mother of the Son of God, that she is the Mother of God, that she is the mother of the church, that she is the Queen of Heaven, that she was immaculately conceived, that she was ever virgin, the dispenser of all grace, that she gave birth while keeping a hymen intact, or that she is our co-redeemer, that she appears to people with messages, that she performs miracles from heaven.
And that she is rightly called:
Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God;
Most honored of virgins;
Chosen daughter of the Father
Mother of Christ;
Glory of the Holy Spirit
Virgin daughter of Zion,
Virgin poor and humble,
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemed,
Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Model of virtue,
Finest fruit of the redemption,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Gentle Lady,
Gracious Lady,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Splendor of the Church,
Pride of the human race,
Advocate of grace,
Minister of holiness,
Champion of God’s people,
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe (pp. 190,191)
From the “Litany of Loreto”
Mother of the Church,
Mother of Divine grace,
Mother most pure;
Mother of chaste love;
Mother and virgin,
Sinless Mother,
Dearest of Mothers,
Model of motherhood,
Mother of good counsel;
Mother of our Creator;
Mother of our Savior;
Virgin most wise;
Virgin rightly praised;
Virgin rightly renowned;
Virgin most powerful;
Virgin gentle in mercy;
Faithful Virgin;
Mirror of justice;
Throne of wisdom;
Cause of our joy;
Shrine of the Spirit;
Glory of Israel,
Vessel of selfless devotion;
Mystical rose;
Tower of David;
Tower of ivory;
House of gold;
Ark of the covenant;
Gate of heaven;
Morning star;
Health of the sick;
Refuge of sinners;
Comfort of the troubled;
Help of Christians;
Queen of the rosary;
Among hundreds of other names.
I was not raised around Catholics so I literally have no opinion of them. However, when Jesus died upon the cross, the tapestry in the Temple separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of mankind was torn in two, symbolically removing the priest from between man and God. Neither Mary nor any of the saints can do a thing for you unless they do it through the power of God. To pray to ANY deceased or living human being other than the one Son of God, is to raise them to the status of God and therefore to make THEM a god.
Also, read the bible ANYWHERE that an angel appears. What is the first thing the angel says? “Be not afraid.” And when the human falls to their feet, they say, “Get up, I am not God. Do not worship me.” You won’t hear Obama saying that, will you?
The extreme veneration of Mary (which I do believe crosses the line into idolatry and real worship for many Catholics) was a progressive practice in the Church. It started with the reverence and honor from the early Christians (as those two quotes you included, show) and it increased and expanded over the centuries until it became outright worship for many.
Look at some of the more primitive, third world countries, where there is a less educated population. Places like Mexico, or Africa, or remote regions of Asia. In Mexico, for instance, they carry around statues of Mary on "biers", surrounded by candles, and flowers, etc. You tell me how that is any different than worshiping her. Try and tell me with a straight face that the poor and uneducated population can even tell the difference. Millions are engaging in idolatry, probably, because of a misguided tradition that developed within the Church.
Sorry, but that's my opinion.
"Reported" by whom? Where is this "report"?
The sentence isn't even coherent English, so whatever B16 said, I doubt it's a correct translation.
Does your God approve of slander? Mine doesn't.
There is no need to pray for intercession. See my post #66.
However, you must admit that the number of paintings, statues, and stained glass windows elevating Mary holding the baby Jesus positioned in places of honor at Catholic churches look mighty like graven images.
The worship of the Saints is an act of veneration (dulia), not of adoration (latria), which can be given only to God. It is wrong to imagine, as many Protestants do, that by praying to and venerating the Saints we subtract something from the homage we owe to God...From the thread The Veneration and Imitation of the Saints
Welcome home Rum Tum Tugger!
I converted about 20 years ago out of the very anti-Catholic Church of Christ.
Their theology would be right at home here on FR.
This:
Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race
You're completely wrong, Boagenes, and not even Luther would agree with you.
So, by your logic, when the traditional form of the (Protestant) wedding vows have the groom telling his bride, “With my body I thee worship,” he’s promising to commit idolatry?
Sorry, don’t follow you. What “Organization?”
Not "the priest," those priests.
Your argument is made moot by the fact that descendants of Italian immigrants here in the United States (and people in Italy to this day) do the same, not just with Mary, but with other saints. This is also done in Malta, Poland, and the Catholic parts of Germany. The veneration (not worship) of images was defended by St. John Damascene, a man subject to the cruel reign of Muslims and their iconoclasm, and his view was upheld by both the Western (Catholic) and Eastern (Catholic and Orthodox) Churches by the Second Council of Nicea in 787.
Nice story, but we do not need Mary to do that. The Holy Spirit was sent by God and knows the real meaning of your heart and prayers. God is not a mortal king who will reject your prayers because they aren’t pretty enough. If you are a parent and your small child comes to you with a present of slightly smashed dandelion flowers, do you reject them because they are just dandelions and not very pretty? Of course not, and neither does your heavenly Father.
Romans 8:25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.
</anti-Catholicmind>
Your reasoning is slightly off. Jesus existed with God from the beginning. Mary only bore his mortal body. Mary is the mother of Jesus, the human man, not the mother of the immortal and everlasting God.
I didn't catch the part where he said we "need" Mary to do that.
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