AmP Poll: Was SC priest right to suggest confession for Obama voters? [Catholic Caucus]

American Papist ^ | November 13, 2008 | Thomas Peters

[NYer]

You can vote in the AmP Poll at the bottom of this post. But first, the details....

Michael Paulson at Articles of Faith:

The pastor of St. Mary Catholic Church in Greenville, SC, is urging parishioners who voted for Barack Obama not to present themselves for Communion unless they go to confession first because they have cooperated with "intrinsic evil'' by voting for a candidate who supports abortion rights over a candidate who does not. The Rev. Jay Scott Newman told the Greenville News that he doesn't intend to deny anyone Communion, but made it clear that his view is that Obama voters should not present themselves without seeking penance first "lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.''

The relevant passage from Pastor Newman's letter:

Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ’s Church and under the judgment of divine law. Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.

Before I get into the reactions, my four observations:

1. not quite: The common teaching on this matter has been that it gravely wrong to vote for a pro-choice candidate because you support their pro-abortion stance. This is the common conclusion drawn from, for instance, Cardinal Ratzinger's famous letter. Fr. Newman seems to be arguing that an Obama vote in this case is wrong not because it representes formal cooperation, but because it is a case of material cooperation (because their vote helped elect him)
2. actually: People who vote for a pro-choice candidate despite there being a pro-life candidate in the running, circumstances being equal, I would say have a poorly-formed conscience ... however, that does not mean they are culpable of any sin if they honestly attempted to inform their conscience, or were misled by third parties, etc.
3. moreover: individual parish priests should take the lead from their bishops when it comes to the pastoral implications of forming the consciences of their parishioners. There's a reason why no other priest in America has apparently done something like this - a priest ought not to exercise this level of admonition about issues still genuinely up for discussion.
4. finally: it seems to be that a nation of Catholics that elects Obama by a majority needs education, guidance and leadership about its faith. There are good and bad ways to go about it, and telling people they have just committed a mortal sin isn't the best way. Try teaching them for four years, and if this keeps happening .... well, that's another story.

Now here's an interesting thing, the parishioners don't seem too upset, at least according to Fr. Newman. Remember who we are hearing this from, of course. I wonder if the parish leans heavily right?

More amazingly, one could conclude the local diocese of Charleston has Fr. Newman's back:

"Stephen Gajdosik, spokesman for the Catholic Diocese of Charleston, told The News that calling parishioners who voted for a candidate who supports legalized abortions to penance is a question of how best to deepen a flock's relationship to God and a move left up to local priests. He said such a move is appropriate and in line with church teaching."

"Newman said, "An uninformed vote is an irresponsible vote," and that no informed voter this year could have mistaken the candidates' abortion positions." [source.]

Charleston currently does not have a bishop, instead they have an interim apostolic administrator.

Anyway, let's talk about it. Is Fr. Newman, strictly-speaking, right or wrong? And if he is right, was he right to go about it in this way? After all, how you preach the truth is important as well. Oh and vote:

Poll stats here.

[madison10]

Yes.

[NYer]

Poll ping!

[trisham]

Absolutely yes!

[RexBeach]

This guy has more courage than all the bishops put together.

My answer is YES!

[mockingbyrd]

Yes does not express how absolutely correct this priest was.

[pgkdan]

Fr. Newman seems to be arguing that an Obama vote in this case is wrong not because it representes formal cooperation, but because it is a case of material cooperation (because their vote helped elect him)

And Father Newman is right and the author is wrong in his objection. Obama's longstanding promise to sign FOCA and his promises for federal funding of abortion are not secrets. The bishops made their positions perfectly clear. You can't vote for the man who you know plans to sign FOCA just becuase you support universal health care, or any other of his positions, and at the same time divorce yourself from the consequences of the candidates support for FOCA. If FOCA passes those so called Catholics who voted for Obama are as guilty of the consequences as Obama is himself. Their vote is the very essence of material cooperation with an intrinsic evil!

[SaintDismas]

This author may have a valid point about whether or not one person or the other actually incurs a mortally damning sin on his soul. But it has to be remembered too that for whatever reason someone under his authority did not realize that this is cooperating with evil, he himself is under the authority of Church and holy scripture to tell his brother of their sin and it’s consequence.

And this is where I become incredulous-how would anyone be deceived or uninformed about his Catholic teaching on the matter of life, and how could anyone living in this age not be informed about the baby killer Barak Obama?

[JimRed]

Only 67.2% agreed...

[SaintDismas]

his=priest in question

[knittnmom]

I don’t understand how Catholics could be misinformed. I was in 7th grade at St. Mary’s in Richland Center when Roe v Wade passed. Sister Rita laid everything out in clear terms for us, even addressing the “life of the mother” argument. I’ve never had a question in my mind since then that abortion is evil and an abomination.

[trisham]

I don’t understand how Catholics could be misinformed. I was in 7th grade at St. Mary’s in Richland Center when Roe v Wade passed. Sister Rita laid everything out in clear terms for us, even addressing the “life of the mother” argument. I’ve never had a question in my mind since then that abortion is evil and an abomination.

**********************

They can't be misinformed. They are willfully going against Church teachings.

[Ransomed]

I think the bishops deliberately misinformed many.

freegards

[trisham]

I think the bishops deliberately misinformed many.

***********************

Yes, but how many Catholics "shopped around" until they found a bishop whose teachings reflected their own incorrect beliefs?

[veritas2002]

Suppose we had a candidate who ran on a platform wherein he intended to by Executive order, legislation by his party or trying to change the constitution called for the re-institution of slavery. Would it be wrong to vote for this person even though other aspects of his agenda were acceptable? I think not.

[trisham]

How many folks spent their entire lives under one crappy bishop and never considered shopping around for different teaching?

******************

I don't know, but they don't have an excuse, either.

[Religion Moderator]

Do not use potty language on the Religion Forum.

[PzLdr]

Yes. Wish the rest of the RC hierarchy would do the same.

[rbmillerjr]

Many Bishops left the election issues very vague. IMO they do this at their own peril.

They were clear on abortion and life but they were completely vague and ambiguous when it came to other issues and where the priority should have been.

My parish Priest is very strong on the Life issue and I sent him some articles post election and expressed my point of view. I haven’t gotten any response lol. Of course maybe some Obamite office workder filters the email and deleted it.

[Ransomed]

Intentional lack of the clear Church teaching on baby butchery (and many other topics) from lib bishops had everything to do with how misinformed the majority of Catholics seem to be. How can a misinformed Catholic who votes baby butchery be as guilty as an informed Catholic who votes baby butchery? Yeah, they are both wrong but one is more wrong than the other, right?

Freegards

[Ransomed]

Sorry for my use of potty language. I never thought of the word in question as “potty language”, will try to do better on R.forum.

Freegards

[kidd]

Suppose we had a candidate who ran on a platform wherein he intended to by Executive order, legislation by his party or trying to change the constitution called for the re-institution of slavery. Would it be wrong to vote for this person even though other aspects of his agenda were acceptable? I think not.

Suppose Hitler were up for election and he promised to continue killing Jews, but he otherwise promised to be a good guy. Would it be a sin to vote for him? Yes

Understand, Obama holds the highly radical position that if the mother merely intended to abort her baby, that the baby should die. This is a truly appalling lack of respect for the sanctity of life and sets a precedent for selective euthanasia.

[Patriotic1]

Sure - it’s a venial sin at the very least.

[trisham]

Intentional lack of the clear Church teaching on baby butchery (and many other topics) from lib bishops had everything to do with how misinformed the majority of Catholics seem to be. How can a misinformed Catholic who votes baby butchery be as guilty as an informed Catholic who votes baby butchery? Yeah, they are both wrong but one is more wrong than the other, right?

************************

How can a Catholic possibly be misinformed these days?

Which Catholics believe in abortion? One might guess it would be those who haven't access to computers or newspapers, who haven't been exposed to much outside their own Church or parish, but isn't it more prevalent amongst those who have been educated? Who do have access?

[trisham]

Apology accepted. I confess I didn’t even notice it.

[NYer]

I was in 7th grade at St. Mary’s in Richland Center when Roe v Wade passed. Sister Rita laid everything out in clear terms for us, even addressing the “life of the mother” argument. I’ve never had a question in my mind since then that abortion is evil and an abomination.

Alas Sister Rita is now retired and most children fortunate enough to attend Catholic school, are taught by lay people. My daughter would tell me that her science class often ran two periods because the science teacher was also the religion instructor. You can see where he placed his priorities.

As Dir for Rel Ed at my parish, let me assure you that it is a struggle to convince parents to send their children to Sunday school. Ironically, parents of 2 and 3 y/o's beg to have their kids admitted to class. It matters not that their babies comperhend nothing and only disrupt the class for the 4 and 5 y/o's. But once the kids reach age 10, the battle ensues. They don't want to come and Mom and Dad give every excuse imaginable in their son (or daughter)'s defense .... he has (fill in the sport) practice at that time, she has a b'day party (or is in a wedding, etc) on that day ....

Like you, I also had the nuns but those days are long gone. The bishop in our RC diocese has now made rel ed, optional. Is it any wonder the children and their parents are all confused?

[trisham]

Like you, I also had the nuns but those days are long gone. The bishop in our RC diocese has now made rel ed, optional. Is it any wonder the children and their parents are all confused?

*********************

I agree it sounds dreadful, but only because many Catholics today have chosen to live a secular lifestyle. They have chosen to look away from the truth.

[Ransomed]

They can be misinformed because the bishops were not clear, and haven’t been doing their jobs for 40 years. Especially in some areas of the country. Plus, they see famous pro-baby butchery Catholics be pro-baby butchery with impunity and so think it really isn’t a big deal.

As to which is more common, those who are misinformed or those that are informed as to Church teaching, how many U.S. Catholics have heard of the term “latae sententiae” and the concept that goes with it? I would guess only a fraction. I am not denying many were informed and did the wrong thing. I am just saying that many were misinformed and did the wrong thing too.

Freegards

[trisham]

They can be misinformed because the bishops were not clear, and haven’t been doing their jobs for 40 years. Especially in some areas of the country. Plus, they see famous pro-baby butchery Catholics be pro-baby butchery with impunity and so think it really isn’t a big deal.

As to which is more common, those who are misinformed or those that are informed as to Church teaching, how many U.S. Catholics have heard of the term “latae sententiae” and the concept that goes with it? I would guess only a fraction. I am not denying many were informed and did the wrong thing. I am just saying that many were misinformed and did the wrong thing too.

*********************

I'm sure there are a number of issues in which Catholics might understandably be led astray by errant bishops, but abortion? I don't think so.

[voiceinthewind]

Rather then have a formal religious ed class, the parents who don’t want the kids in class should be given the books necessary to teach their kids the catechism. In the best of worlds, they would have already owned the books. Then, let the parents know that before the kids get First Communion Father will be sitting down and having a chat with them. If their child has not been taught the basics of the faith, they’ll have to wait. A rel. ed class that is full of malcontents who make the time there stressful and a waste is not somewhere I want my children to be. Too often the children that do attend reflect the negative CINO attitudes of the parents, and since I don’t interact with them, why should my children? Sometimes it’s the instructors, too. Liberal agendas and an attitude of martyrdom. My two cents.
Not a reflection on you, NYer. We all know that you are the exception. But boy, all of the parish religious education classes my kids went through were wretched.

[AliVeritas]

Of course.

[Ransomed]

Oh, they know abortion is wrong, but since they didn’t vote for him because of his views on abortion, they think that this is cool with the Church. How could they have gotten such a mixed up idea? Because many bishops gave this impression.

Freegards

[Radl]

It’s his church. He can do what he wants and if they don’t like it they can become Unitarians.

[pgkdan]

The bishop in our RC diocese has now made rel ed, optional. Is it any wonder the children and their parents are all confused?

How then are they prepared for the Sacrements?

[rogator]

“Yes, but how many Catholics “shopped around” until they found a bishop whose teachings reflected their own incorrect beliefs? “

And I would bet that most of them did not have very far to shop.

[trisham]

Oh, they know abortion is wrong, but since they didn’t vote for him because of his views on abortion, they think that this is cool with the Church. How could they have gotten such a mixed up idea? Because many bishops gave this impression.

***********************

Anyone who has read "Evangelium vitae" cannot possibly be confused about abortion. http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

[Ransomed]

“Anyone who has read “Evangelium vitae” cannot possibly be confused about abortion.”

How many US Catholics have heard of Evangelium vitae much less read it? I’d hazard that the number is much less than even 50%.

Freegards

[Desdemona]

I heard a conversation on this topic this morning and the gist of it was where does this priest get off saying such things when no one else is. At least two of these people are not strict in any fashion, but there was even questioning of the need for Penance.

Teaching has been abysmal for so long, even people who went to Catholic schools say this sort of thing. I was sort of speechless.

[NYer]

Teaching has been abysmal for so long,

It's absolutely frightening what we encounter in our small parish. And these are the 'lucky' ones whose families had the wherewithall to baptize their children. I think we would shudder to read the statistics on the number of "catholic" families that have never had their children baptized, much less catechized.

[marshmallow]

How can a Catholic possibly be misinformed these days?

One word.

Can you say "Bernardin"?

All right, two words.

How about "seamless garment"?

This is how it goes.

"Yes indeed, abortion is wrong. Very wrong. Don't think I'm trying to soft peddle here. No sir! Abortion is a sin. But so is war. So is poverty. So is lack of health care. What we need to do is develop an overall pro-life ethos. One which takes into account every aspect of human life...........etc, etc"

Confused yet?

Take this recipe, mix in a gaggle of sycophantic, Bernardin protege bishops, stir vigorously and then serve to the people continuously for about 10 years.

If you're not confused now, you soon will be.

[trisham]

How many US Catholics have heard of Evangelium vitae much less read it? I’d hazard that the number is much less than even 50%.

******************

It's my contention that Catholics bear some responsibility for their own education. Along with attending Church, to read Catholic publications, to visit Catholic web sites, and so on. To visit the Religion forum on Free Republic.

As for the number of Catholics that know of "Evangelium Vitae", I could only speculate, which is not very helpful, I fear.

[trisham]

Well, I don't think most Catholics are confused. Nor do I think they are sheep.

The Catholics that I have known who are pro-choice, pro-contraception and so on are also quite politically liberal. Imho, their lack of commitment to the Church may be as much due to a political perspective as it is due to religious beliefs or teachings. They have chosen to disregard all that does not conform to their world view, or that they perceive to be difficult.

[marshmallow]

Bernardin's "seamless garment" teaching wrought havoc.

Complete havoc.

By propagating the idea that when one casts a vote one must not only consider the issue of abortion but also the death penalty for instance, or nuclear disarmament, you've immediately clouded the issue. It's no longer a simple choice.

It's brilliant and the very definition of confusion. You don't deny outright that abortion is the overriding issue. You simply go in search of other issues, wring your hands, and lament how many other situations there are where human life is not respected.

[Ransomed]

Yeah. Another good one was the “proportionate reason” loop hole. Saying that it’s cool to vote for the baby butchery guy as long as there is a “proportianate reason” for doing so, but never giving an example of what such a reason would be—because any such reason would look like the plot of a sci-fi book.

Freegards

[Salvation]

**The common teaching on this matter has been that it gravely wrong to vote for a pro-choice candidate because you support their pro-abortion stance.**

Gravely wrong = mortal sin = Confession time!

[baa39]

Yes, Salv, Confession...and Penance. I’d like to see priests this weekend suggest to all those who voted for our new pro-death president-elect that they do penance for the babies that will die due to their votes, and that penance should directly relate to bringing their consciences in line with Church teaching.

For example, they could (1) write to all their Congressmen opposing FOCA and supporting the continuation of the Mexico City Policy, (2) give “alms” by donating to American Life League, HLI, Priests for Life, C-Fam, Project Rachel, or some other truly pro-life charity, and then read the literature those groups send out. (3) They should be required to watch the video put out by the Bella star (on You Tube) that shows graphic abortion pictures.

And....DON’T present yourself for Communion until you have done all of the above, or you add sacrilege to the already grave sin of cooperation with evil.

I wonder if 50 years ago this would have seemed “unreasonable” for a priest to say?

[Salvation]

Pray for LIFE!

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