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One of the most basic divisions in the intellectual life of the sixteenth century was the Catholic insistence on this "Both-And" approach to theology while the great Protestant reformers – Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and Cramner – set out their theological challenge invoking "Either-Or" distinctions. The Reformation theologians insisted that it was grace, not nature, that perfected the human soul, that it was Scripture only, and not Tradition, that guaranteed the authenticity of the Church, and that it was faith, not works, which achieved salvation. The only counter-example I can think of was Luther’s famous observation that a Christian was "simul justus et peccator," at the same time justified yet still a sinner. (And, if Luther had written only that thought, it would be enough to guarantee his status as a theologian of orginality and genius.)

Catholic theology, on the other hand, tries to see past the apparent differences to a common source. So, grace perfects nature in Catholic ethics, Scripture and Tradition both flow from the same font of revelation, and faith and works must go hand-in-hand...


...friends, cool down your laptops. Obama is not going to be received into the Catholic Church anytime soon. I know that. You know that. Most importantly, he knows it. That is not the point. The point is that a fundamental intellectual disposition that has served Catholic theology well through the years seems to have found its way into this man’s head, and the reason is probably similar...After eight years in which George W. Bush has channeled that strange mixture of humility and ferocity that is at the heart of orthodox Calvinism, Obama’s pursuit of "Both-And" common ground, even when it is a little fuzzy, is a welcome tonic for a nation that has never been as divided as the political class would have you think it is.

1 posted on 11/25/2008 12:25:34 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

2 posted on 11/25/2008 12:28:19 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Alex Murphy

“Both - And” has it’s foundation in the hypostatic union of Divinity and Humanity.

At this point, we’ve seen no evidence Obama has applied it in his policies. He supports killing pre-born children, and that pretty much sums up where he stands.

I pray this citizenship issue comes to light; Seems to be the only way to stop him.


3 posted on 11/25/2008 12:30:00 PM PST by rjp2005 (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Alex Murphy

yes, I can see where thinking like a Catholic could lead one to conclude infanticide just might not be such a bad thing after all. Or perhaps not.


4 posted on 11/25/2008 12:31:13 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Alex Murphy

IMNSHO, he’s a *&*&% nothing (Black Liberation Theology is NOT a religion - it is a political philosophy that is marxist - thinks like one, acts like one, talks like one...is one...


5 posted on 11/25/2008 12:34:11 PM PST by jessduntno (Barack - Kenyan for "High Wind, Big Thunder, No Rain")
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To: Alex Murphy

As a serious PS. I do with the author would delve more into the post reformation Protestant theology that has shaped so much of modern Protestanism. This theology has its roots more in the philosophy of Kant than the theology of Calvin.


7 posted on 11/25/2008 12:38:25 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Alex Murphy

The media will do anything to make the big Zero look good. If he had learned anything from Catholicism then he would not be in favor of killing babies.


8 posted on 11/25/2008 12:41:46 PM PST by seawolf101
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To: Alex Murphy

so glad I wasted 5 minutes reading that. should have stopped when I saw the title.


10 posted on 11/25/2008 12:44:51 PM PST by MashieNiblick16
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To: Alex Murphy

I’m sorry, the piece is incoherent. You can’t lay Obama at the feet of Catholic theology.

If Biden and Obama were believing church-going catholics, we’d have a lot less to worry about. They’d probably still be statists, but statists with a moral sense.

Biden is essentially a secular catholic, catholic in name only, and Obama claims to be a fellow evangelical though he’s been outed now by his Reverend.

The point isn’t the flavor of their Christianity but rather that what faith they may possess has been displaced by a greater faith in the State.


11 posted on 11/25/2008 12:51:32 PM PST by marron
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To: Alex Murphy
Is Obama Thinking Like a Catholic?

More likely like the muslim he is.

12 posted on 11/25/2008 12:52:44 PM PST by The Sons of Liberty (Sworn to Defend The Constitution Against All Enemies, Foreign and Domestic!)
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To: Alex Murphy
What rubbish! Obama might be old enough to remember when whole neighborhoods were known by the local parish name, etc., but it is extremely unlikely that any of that meant anything to him, or would rub off on him. Besides, he spent a considerable amount of that time elsewhere, dealing with "different" religious persuasions.

"America" is a liberal Catholic screed that isn't fit to be turned into toilet paper. It hardly speaks for orthodox Catholicism, or even for Catholics outside of the Kumbaya fringe. This whole piece is an exercise in wishful thinking on their part, and hardly borne-out either by Obama's religious past or his present mindset. He's about as "Catholic" as the Dalai Lama, and far less principled. And for this magazine to invoke the American Catholic mindset of days long ago, and couple that with wholesome appeals to folks like St. Robert Bellarmine (!!!) is just a laughably disingenuous bait-and-switch to get the gullible to think this monster is a throwback to the good old days.

13 posted on 11/25/2008 12:55:10 PM PST by magisterium
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To: Alex Murphy
I know, I know: I can hear the abortion-only brigade

As opposed to slavery-only, womens-sufferage-only and other throw away one issue voters...-sarc This person is clueless.

16 posted on 11/25/2008 1:26:17 PM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: Alex Murphy
That's pretty thin stuff.

Maybe he should get together with Jack Cashill and prove that Cardinal George ghosted Obama's book.

After all, they've use some of the same words, haven't they?

And anyway, aren't the Episcopalians/Anglicans the "Both-And" folks par excellence?

Heck, they even have two names for their church ...

17 posted on 11/25/2008 1:26:27 PM PST by x
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To: Alex Murphy

Definitely deserves a barf alert.


18 posted on 11/25/2008 1:30:51 PM PST by Campion
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To: Alex Murphy
"I can hear the abortion-only brigade..."

Don't forget not only Thou shalt not murder see also:

Thou shalt not steal (To fund a corrupt bureaucracy and enrich his cronies)

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (Misrepresenting and flat out lying about certain Repubs to get elected)

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods. (Spread the wealth, punish the income earners who worked hard for their earnings).

The guy who wrote this article is a reprobate, plain and simple.
19 posted on 11/25/2008 1:36:40 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: Alex Murphy
I guess Jesus wasn't a Catholic, for he made distinctions. There was nothing “both-and” in his teachings. You are either with him or you're against him. The children of Israel tried to be “both-and,”for they wanted to serve the Lord and Baal. I would remind you that the hypostatic union is asymmetrical. The personhood of Jesus is the Son of God. He is not equally divine and human.
20 posted on 11/25/2008 1:42:02 PM PST by Nosterrex
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To: Alex Murphy
Is Obama Thinking Like a Catholic?

More like Catholics think like The Messiah, The Obama, The One (piss be upon him).

23 posted on 11/25/2008 2:02:51 PM PST by Old Sarge (For the first time in my life, I am ashamed to be an American)
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To: Alex Murphy

The more I see dribble like this the more I realize a lot of protestants are just plain stupid. To take this garbage hook, line, and sinker is so typical of those lacking in intellect.


25 posted on 11/25/2008 2:07:14 PM PST by big'ol_freeper (Gen. George S. Patton to Michael Moore... American Carol: "I really like slapping you.")
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To: Alex Murphy

Hell, Biden isn’t even Catholic.....

He’s closer to Judas.....

Just ask the bishops.....


31 posted on 11/25/2008 3:18:45 PM PST by nevergore ("It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.")
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To: Alex Murphy; NYer
As bad as this sounds, I have heard Catholics around here saying that Obama is more “Catholic” than Palin (never McCain).

They have talked a lot about the poor, and not much about life. SO while this article is a bit odd, it is reflecting a true view out there.

33 posted on 11/25/2008 5:09:35 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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