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When was Christ born?
American Presbyterian Church ^

Posted on 12/04/2008 7:15:40 AM PST by meandog

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To: XeniaSt; meandog
Yep. As a matter of fact, the Hebrew sukkah (S-K-H) is from the same root or was the source of the Greek skenoo (S-K-H-N-O).

Shalom.

51 posted on 12/05/2008 6:42:47 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman; chuckles
With all respect to Edersheim, that doesn't work. Per 1Ch 24:7, Jehoiarib was the first priestly course. That means it would have been taking its turn at the beginning of the religious calendar (Nisan 1-7) and at the beginning of the civil (Tishri 1-7), not midway through. Not that I have reason to doubt Josephus and the Talmud--but it is evident that the priestly orders had become disrupted during the siege, probably due to attrition.

Well, as I understand it the explanation given is that the disruption goes all the way back to the return from Babylon. For your scheme to work the timing would have had to remain intact going all the way back to the time of Chronicles. The Jewish record of the 1st century suggests that was not the case.

But Edersheim has 5 other points to support his conclusion. And he is certainly not alone. A number of authors after careful researched have concluded that while we cannot know for sure, the traditional date is quite possible.

consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night.

Actually, there is good historical evidence to suggest that flocks would have been present as specified in the gospel account in the December period. Again, quoting Edersheim:

But as we pass from the sacred gloom of the cave out into the night, its sky all aglow with starry brightness, its loneliness is peopled, and its silence made vocal from heaven. There is nothing now to conceal, but much to reveal, though the manner of it would seem strangely incongruous to Jewish thinking. And yet Jewish tradition may here prove both illustrative and helpful. That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem,949 was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, ‘the tower of the flock.’950 This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah951 leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices,952 and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism,953 on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover - that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.954 A somewhat different explanation is given in Jer. Bezah 63 b. Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak. ( Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Chapter VI)

949 In the curious story of His birth, related in the Jer. Talmud (Ber. ii. 3), He is said to have been born in ‘the royal castle of Bethlehem;’ while in the parallel narrative in the Midr. on Lament. i. 16, ed. W. p. 64 b) the somewhat mysterious expression is used {hebrew}. But we must keep in view the Rabbinic statement that, even if a castle falls down, it is still called a castle (Yalkut, vol. ii. p. 60 b).

950 Targum Pseudo-Jon. On Gen. xxxv. 21.

951 Shek. vii. 4.

952 In fact the Mishnah (Baba K. vii. 7) expressly forbids the keeping of flocks throughout the land of Israel, except in the wilderness - and the only flocks otherwise kept, would be those for the Temple-services (Baba K. 80 a).

953 This disposes of an inapt quotation (from Delitzsch) by Dr. Geikie. No one could imagine, that the Talmudic passages in question could apply to such shepherds as these.

954 The mean of 22 seasons in Jerusalem amounted to 4.718 inches in December, 5.479 in January, and 5.207 in February (see a very interesting paper by Dr. Chaplin in Quart. Stat. of Pal. Explor. Fund, January, 1883). For 1876-77 we have these startling figures: mean for December, .490; for January, 1.595; for February, 8.750 - and, similarly, in other years. And so we read: ‘Good the year in which Tebheth (December) is without rain’ (Taan. 6 b). Those who have copied Lightfoot’s quotations about the flocks not lying out during the winter months ought, at least, to have known that the reference in the Talmudic passages is expressly to the flocks which pastured in ‘the wilderness’ ({hebrew}). But even so, the statement, as so many others of the kind, is not accurate. For, in the Talmud two opinions are expressed. According to one, the ‘Midbariyoth,’ or ‘animals of the wilderness,’ are those which go to the open at the Passovertime, and return at the first rains (about November); while, on the other hand, Rabbi maintains, and, as it seems, more authoritatively, that the wilderness-flocks remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season - i.e. all the year round (Bezah 40 a). Comp. also Tosephta Bezah iv. 6.


52 posted on 12/05/2008 7:05:35 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: Buggman
It was a Bible study I did on the Jewish Feasts a few years ago. The teacher was a Messianic Jew that spoke of the Feast days having "themes". One theme was taught during the Feast of Tabernacles was the priests erected a post in the courtyard of the Temple, wrapped in in cloth dipped in oil, and lit. They would declare to the pilgrims "The Light of the World", as they passed it. It was placed in the courtyard so everyone could see and not just priests. This was just another example why a Jew was supposed to recognize their Messiah when He came. It was also another example of Jesus fulfilling EVERY jot and tittle of Jewish Law and tradition.

A very good DVD study is called "The Feasts of the Lord" by Mark Biltz.

http://elshaddaiministries.us/storefront/dvd.html

This DVD set may cover this topic, I can't remember, but would have to re watch it to find out. If it is covered on the DVD, Biltz would give the Bible verse involved. Generally speaking, if there is a NT verse, he can tie it to an OT verse being fulfilled by Christ. If Jesus was referred to as "The Light of the World", it would be mentioned in the OT somewhere.

53 posted on 12/05/2008 7:30:44 AM PST by chuckles
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To: topcat54
Well, as I understand it the explanation given is that the disruption goes all the way back to the return from Babylon. For your scheme to work the timing would have had to remain intact going all the way back to the time of Chronicles.

Chronicles was most likely written or overseen by Ezra, which means that the correct priestly order was known after the return from Babylon. There's no reason not to believe that the courses were done in their proper order.

I'd have to look up the Talmudic reference, but to be blunt about it, Edersheim is ignoring basic geography: There may well have been flocks out and about in December--in the lowlands where it was warmer, if still rainy--but not that high up in the mountains, where runoff and the possibility of snow and ice (which are frequent in winter in Jerusalem) would risk unnecessary damage to flocks left wandering about.

Sorry, it still doesn't add up. Nice try, though.

And now, I really must get back to work.

Shalom.

54 posted on 12/05/2008 8:20:04 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: fproy2222
....."Ultimately we will never really know exactly when our Lord was born. And that does not matter because we really do not need to know."......

Not true. The purpose of the Jewish Feasts Days were for encounters with God. Just as Passover had 2 encounters with God, so too we saw God in action on Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost. Given that track record, wouldn't it make sense to have an encounter with God on Trumpets, Yom Kippur, and Tabernacles? When the disciples asked Jesus about when The end times prophesies would happen, He told them they were not in darkness, but were children of light and could know these things. The day Christ was actually born isn't that important now that He has come, but if you were a wise man in Persia, you would have been watching for the signs and would have known your Savior was come if you had known the times of the seasons.

If you read the parables on the foolish virgins, the talents, unwise servants, etc, they all point to "servants"( that's a Christian) that has forgotten, or wasn't looking for his Master to return. You CAN know these days for His return and He admonishes you to be "watching" for Him. It is absolutely true that Dec 25th means nothing to God, but Tabernacles absolutely matters to God, as does Trumpets, and Yom Kippur.

Jesus appeared to us as a Jew, He practiced as an observant Jew, and the Jewish people were chosen to reveal the oracles of God to the world. Jesus came to save the Jew first, and then the Gentile. It would be totally consistent for the Jewish Law and customs to reveal EVERYTHING about Christ. To celebrate on a pagan day is just another example of the spirit of Antichrist already here. To call Sunday the Sabbath is another example. The first thing Jesus will do on His return to Earth will be to re establish the Sabbath.

I'm not a radical. I observe the birth of Jesus on Christmas on Dec. 25th, but I also observe the worship of my Savior every day. Jesus told His Church not to worry about people judging you not observing Feast Days and other traditions. He also relieved us of the burden of forbidden foods. But knowing the significance of the Feast Days should be a TOP priority of all Christian teachings. Just as we understand He most likely was born on Tabernacles, we need to understand the Rapture will most likely happen on some future Rosh Hashana( Trumpets, ergo the trump theme), the return of Christ on Yom Kippur( Judgment Day), and the 1000 year Reign of Christ should begin on some future Feast of Tabernacles.

For most Christians, we might be wrong on most of these days, but look at the cost of being wrong if you don't know that Trumpets will bring the Rapture. Not knowing Jesus was born on Tabernacles is just a slight inconvenience, but being left behind because you didn't think the Feast Days mattered will put us in the category of the foolish virgins or the foolish servants that got drunk and beat the others. Just picture the virgins that were told to go where they "buy and sell" and return to find their Bridegroom gone. They were still "virgins", (Christians), but apparently were the "lukewarm" "double minded" Christians who thought their Master delayed His return.

Celebrating Christmas in Dec doesn't doom you to hell, but shouldn't our teachers teach the Truth?

55 posted on 12/05/2008 8:21:29 AM PST by chuckles
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To: chuckles
I think you are the only one who has addressed the real meaning of the article.
56 posted on 12/05/2008 8:36:26 AM PST by fproy2222
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To: Buggman; chuckles
There's no reason not to believe that the courses were done in their proper order.

Except for the historical references to the rabbis and Josephus.

I'd have to look up the Talmudic reference, but to be blunt about it, Edersheim is ignoring basic geography: … Sorry, it still doesn't add up. Nice try, though.

As I understand it Edersheim is essentially conveying the historical reality of that time wrt the flocks used to the sacrifices. While I don't necessarily accept the December timeframe in any authoritative way, I do find the typological suggestion of the shepherds coming to attend the true Lamb of God fascinating.

But recall Edersheim’s response in the footnote to this alleged issue:

954 The mean of 22 seasons in Jerusalem amounted to 4.718 inches in December, 5.479 in January, and 5.207 in February (see a very interesting paper by Dr. Chaplin in Quart. Stat. of Pal. Explor. Fund, January, 1883). For 1876-77 we have these startling figures: mean for December, .490; for January, 1.595; for February, 8.750 - and, similarly, in other years. And so we read: ‘Good the year in which Tebheth (December) is without rain’ (Taan. 6 b). Those who have copied Lightfoot’s quotations about the flocks not lying out during the winter months ought, at least, to have known that the reference in the Talmudic passages is expressly to the flocks which pastured in ‘the wilderness’ ({hebrew}). But even so, the statement, as so many others of the kind, is not accurate. For, in the Talmud two opinions are expressed. According to one, the ‘Midbariyoth,’ or ‘animals of the wilderness,’ are those which go to the open at the Passovertime, and return at the first rains (about November); while, on the other hand, Rabbi maintains, and, as it seems, more authoritatively, that the wilderness-flocks remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season - i.e. all the year round (Bezah 40 a). Comp. also Tosephta Bezah iv. 6.

57 posted on 12/05/2008 10:04:38 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: chuckles; fproy2222
For most Christians, we might be wrong on most of these days, but look at the cost of being wrong if you don't know that Trumpets will bring the Rapture. Not knowing Jesus was born on Tabernacles is just a slight inconvenience, but being left behind because you didn't think the Feast Days mattered will put us in the category of the foolish virgins or the foolish servants that got drunk and beat the others.

No one knows whether Jesus was born on Tabernacles and that does not seem to matter at all. If it did I have no doubt God would have clearly and unequivocally published the exact date in His Word.

And not knowing the feast days will not cause anyone to be "left behind" unless they do not already know the Savoir to whom the feast days simply pointed.

"And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:27)

I do not have to build a tent in my back yard to know the true tabernacle of God come down from heaven, or blow a ram’s horn once a year to know he will return "at the last trumpet". These are not hidden things.

They were still "virgins", (Christians),

Actually they were not. For the parable concludes, " Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming." Jesus knows all His own by name. The kingdom is full of both wheat and tares, and the foolish virgins were not His own. (We also need to be careful about assuming a word means something without carefully examining the context.)

58 posted on 12/05/2008 10:17:49 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; chuckles
Except for the historical references to the rabbis and Josephus.

Which refer to a time when Jerusalem had been under siege since Passover, many had died because of famine and plague, and the services had been disrupted for lack of animals to sacrifice. There's another Talmudic reference which tells us that Aviyah served just before Shavuot (Pentecost), as I recall. I'll have to look it up when I get home.

But recall Edersheim’s response in the footnote to this alleged issue

Which presents two differing rabbinic opinions. We could favor one over the other, or figure out if there is a way to reconcile them. (Such as supposing that there were two traditions based on there being practices in different parts of Judea, depending on the local geography.) Either way, since there is nothing conclusive, and nothing with deals with the geographic realities in Bethlehem, you are left with only an opinion that doesn't quite fit with the facts, as other commentators have recognized.

Shalom.

59 posted on 12/05/2008 10:43:09 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: topcat54
...."We also need to be careful about assuming a word means something without carefully examining the context"...

I was taught this very way in my early walk. I know believe differently. There are many that claim Christ who don't have a clue. They are not going in the Rapture. That doesn't meant they aren't saved. Don't mistake Salvation with Raptured. They are separate. There will be many left behind that will have to choose to refuse the "mark" or not. We are in the age of Grace right now. After the Rapture, we may very well have to chose To give out lives to be saved. Remember, Jesus said "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father." During Tribulation, if you refuse the mark, you will be killed. You will have to declare your allegiance to The Beast to live.

Like you, I was taught the foolish virgins weren't Christians. If they weren't Christians they wouldn't be virgins or in the other parables, servants. What Jesus was telling you was that warming a pew isn't going to cut it. There are many "Christians" that have claimed Christ but have no evidence. I am not the judge to decide salvation for someone, but God is most capable of deciding who is doing His work and who isn't. God doesn't force Himself on people. Just as in this conversation, you are free to believe what you want, and so am I. Who will God chose for "His Bride", the one doing His bidding and longing for His return, or the one that claims Christ, but slumbers and gets drunk thinking they have it made and are going with Him anyway when He comes. I'm not preaching works, just the motivativation of your heart. I used to have a notion that God was a communist and gave equal rewards to everyone. I no longer feel that way. You can be "saved" and still be judged with the smell of smoke on your garments. That doesn't mean you are doomed to hell. You are still saved, but your reward is different that others.

I believe the Rapture could happen tomorrow and many churches wouldn't even realize anything had happened. Even the pastor may be so "luke warm" and "double minded", he may be left behind. Notice I said "he". Many of the lady pastors are the ones preaching God loves sodomites and baby murder. The same people have dedicated their lives to God and believe they are good stead with God. They will even deny the Rapture because they are still here. When the Antichrist comes to place his mark, what will they do? Choose, but choose wisely. You can still get to heaven, but you must literally give your life or freedom to get there.

60 posted on 12/05/2008 1:06:29 PM PST by chuckles
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To: chuckles
I believe the Rapture could happen tomorrow and many churches wouldn't even realize anything had happened.

I believe Christ could return tomorrow and everyone will know it.

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:27)

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left." (Matt. 25:31-33)

61 posted on 12/06/2008 8:03:32 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: chuckles

What Rapture?


62 posted on 12/06/2008 8:24:43 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: topcat54
Do not confuse the Rapture with the return of Christ. In the Rapture, we go to Him. The second coming ( as it's called, even though He has appeared many times through history), will be about 7 years after the Rapture, if I understand the prophesy. I suppose the Tribulation doesn't have to start immediately after the Rapture, but most likely will.( prophesy in Daniel)

The point of my post was you may have salvation, but not leave here in the Rapture. Many seem to think they can be saved and never bear fruit afterward and be "entitled" to escape the Tribulation. The purpose of the parables was to warn Christians that they must bear fruit. Works doesn't save you, but it is a result of your feelings for your Lord. Salvation is completely separate from being Raptured out of the Tribulation. Works don't save you as shown when the thief on the cross wasn't able to DO anything after he announced his faith that Christ was Lord. He went to heaven with Christ that day even though his sentence was just and he did no works. The moment you accept Christ as Lord and repent of your sins, you become "justified". You have done nothing, but you are still going to heaven. If you don't die immediately, then you are supposed to be "sanctified". That is what the apostles were doing after the Ascension of Christ. Paul lamented that his flesh did things his spirit knew were wrong and there was a battle going on his whole life. Even though he still sinned, he was being sanctified as he followed Jesus. Then when you die, you are "glorified", and become as Christ is.

I believe we are to STRIVE to remove the sinful parts of our character every day, even though we are ASSURED of salvation. Those that don't are in jeopardy to pay for their sins in this world. That is the answer for some that ask why "good" people suffer in this world. We are not assured that we won't suffer. In fact, Christ said persecution and suffering was a given if you follow Him.

If you "slumber" and are a slacker for Christ during the time you have been commanded to spread the Gospel and live for Him, why would He relieve you of the punishment of the world in the Tribulation?( read the parable of the talents) The weeping and gnashing of teeth will be WITH the unbelievers. In other words, Christians will suffer along side of the lost. God has made an investment in you and we are not supposed to bury it till he comes back. The Rapture isn't the second coming of Christ.

63 posted on 12/06/2008 8:31:32 PM PST by chuckles
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea
...."What Rapture?"....

The one spoken of many times in the Bible.

64 posted on 12/06/2008 11:35:37 PM PST by chuckles
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To: Buggman
While I can't say with 100% certainty that Yeshua was born on Sukkot, I can say with 100% certainty that He wasn't born on Christmas, which was originally a pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice. He was probably conceived close to what is now Christmas, however, which may be why the early Church began adopting and altering that holiday.

Well before the pagans attached themselves to the winter solstice, it was set in motion by the Heavenly Father. And given we are given details regarding when John was conceived and how old in the womb he was when Christ was conceived, how hard can it be to count. It makes perfect sense that on the shortest day of sunlight that the Light/Life Giver would begin His life in flesh. Emanuel = God with us.

65 posted on 12/06/2008 11:48:35 PM PST by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: chuckles

If I do a search in the Bible on “Rapture” will it lead me to the passages wherew it is spoken of?


66 posted on 12/07/2008 3:16:39 AM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: All

When was Yeshua born?

September 11, 3 BC (Yom Teruah)

Check out the Chronology at http://torahtimes.org/

The book is called The Scroll of Biblical Chronology and Prophecy. Online version here:

http://torahtimes.org/book/default.html

See page 44


67 posted on 12/07/2008 4:36:32 AM PST by Renah
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To: rigelkentaurus; Eagle Eye; Buggman; XeniaSt

When was Yeshua born?

September 11, 3 BC (Yom Teruah)

Check out the Chronology at http://torahtimes.org/

The book is called The Scroll of Biblical Chronology and Prophecy. Online version here:

http://torahtimes.org/book/default.html

See page 44

(Re-posting to include names of those who might be interested)


68 posted on 12/07/2008 4:52:50 AM PST by Renah
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To: chuckles
For most Christians, we might be wrong on most of these days, but look at the cost of being wrong if you don't know that Trumpets will bring the Rapture.

What cost is that? Do you think you have to know what day the rapture is supposed to occur in order to be included in it?

Not knowing Jesus was born on Tabernacles is just a slight inconvenience, but being left behind because you didn't think the Feast Days mattered will put us in the category of the foolish virgins or the foolish servants that got drunk and beat the others. Just picture the virgins that were told to go where they "buy and sell" and return to find their Bridegroom gone.

I think this is an impressive misreading of the parable. The reason the foolish virgins had to go out to buy oil was because they weren't prepared in the first place. "Getting drunk and beating the others" isn't a metaphor for not keeping track of Jewish festivals, it's a metaphor for leading a morally disordered life. (Doing things like, say, getting drunk and beating people up.)

The point of the parable is not to preach some sort of gnosis (special knowledge) that some days are more special than others because of where they are on the Jewish calendar. The point is for me to stay in the state of grace and sanctity and repentance, so that when Jesus comes for me -- which could be at his Second Coming, or could be at my own death (which, for all I know, could be today) -- I will be ready.

69 posted on 12/07/2008 6:49:52 AM PST by Campion
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To: chuckles

it is the rapturists who are confused. The Scriptures know of no chronological differentiation between what some folks call the rapture and the Second Coming.


70 posted on 12/07/2008 7:29:31 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: Renah; rigelkentaurus; Eagle Eye; Buggman
When was Yeshua born?

September 11, 3 BC (Yom Teruah)

See page 44

Simply an assertion.

No supporting argumentation at all.

John 1:14 provides more understanding.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
71 posted on 12/07/2008 11:02:22 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt

About 7 pm.


72 posted on 12/07/2008 12:07:50 PM PST by Eagle Eye (Libs- If you don't have to play the rules then neither do we...THINK ABOUT IT!)
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To: null and void

Bump!


73 posted on 12/07/2008 12:09:56 PM PST by fanfan (Update on Constitutional Crisis in Canada.....Click user name)
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To: Westbrook
However, this means Jesus was probably CONCEIVED near the end of December.

When does life begin?

At conception.

Good post.

74 posted on 12/07/2008 12:11:51 PM PST by fanfan (Update on Constitutional Crisis in Canada.....Click user name)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea
..."search in the Bible on “Rapture".....

No, you will get the same result on "Trinity" and a dozen more thing Christians believe in.

The passages are many and I'm sure you have heard of them, seen them, and read them if you have studied the Bible at all.

If you chose not to believe, that's your business, but you will be denying the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. A careful study of the Bible reveals there will be a Rapture and IMHO, it will precede the Tribulation and Second coming. I know and have read the verses that sound like there could be a mid-Trib and a post-Trib Rapture, but that is another argument all together. The fact that there will be a Rapture at the sound of the Trump is certain for myself. God sent His people an Ark before the Flood and has sent Jesus for our Salvation. He said we are not the children of wrath. The wrath He speaks of is His wrath, not just the everyday tragedies we all experience. The bowls of wrath that are spoken of in Revelations are Gods wrath on the Earth. IMO, God will rescue His Bride BEFORE delivering His Wrath to the unbelievers.

Would you allow your wife to suffer the greatest destruction since the foundation of the world? How does that show His love for us?

75 posted on 12/07/2008 1:07:11 PM PST by chuckles
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To: Doctor Don
Probably in April. “Shepherds tending their flocks by night” Shepherds were not in the fields in winter time!

Are you not aware that at that time there was significant global warming caused by sheep farts?

76 posted on 12/07/2008 1:16:48 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Campion
...."Do you think you have to know what day the rapture"...

No.

...." isn't a metaphor for not keeping track of Jewish festivals".....

I didn't say you had to keep track of them. I was showing their meaning.

...."I will be ready."....

I agree with you there. If you are ready, you will go. The question is, are you ready? The virgins weren't living for the Bridegrooms return. Are you? I can't answer those things. The point of the parable was, however to make you think if you are prepared to go, ...right now,...today. Most people seem to think they are going if anybody goes. That is up to the Bridegroom. He knows your heart. If I failed to warn people that living as the world lives won't get you to the Wedding Feast, I wouldn't be doing what I've been commanded to do. I know many "Christians" that warm pews on Sunday after living like hell on Saturday and have no problem with the way they are living. Jesus is not an insurance policy from hell. He wishes to have a relationship with each of us. Too many have the attitude, "I'm going, I'm saved". Maybe, and maybe not. The foolish virgins were admonished to go where they "buy and sell", a clear indication they were to enter the Tribulation. When they returned, it was too late. They were still virgins( Christians) and came back looking for the Bridegroom. Non believers don't do that.

Salvation can be assured, but Rapture is not the same as Judgment. The Bible isn't for non believers. It is for His people. Non believers don't believe anyway. What good does it do to warn a pagan of anything? Pagans are dead and can't see or hear spitual things because they are dead. The virgins spoken of are Christians. The servants spoken of are Christians. The Master spoken of is Jesus. Jesus means nothing to a non believer. The parables are talking to His church. He isn't warning a non believer they better get right.

Just look at the way Jesus spoke to the church elders of His day. He called them every kind of foul name. He came to save the lost, but also came to straighten out His Fathers House. The letters to the Churches in Revelations is just another example of Jesus telling His people he isn't satisfied with them. He starts with what they are doing right, then states they must change something or He won't be satisfied. There is but one church that passes all tests and that is the church that loves one another. You cannot love someone and fail to warn them of the danger they are in.

Too many Christians are comfortable in their knowledge and have never gotten off the milk and feasted on the meat. Everything is there but you have to desire to grow closer to God to find the deeper messages God has for us. I know many Christians that claim extensive knowledge and have never read the whole Bible. The certainly haven't had Bible study or any out of church knowledge given them. Many even are Sunday school teachers that have the burden of passing this knowledge on to their pupils. Reading a prepared pamphlet to the class isn't going to get the job done. Now that Bible reading and prayer are forbidden in school, most people grow up with basic knowledge and claim superior Bible ability even though they know less than the average housewife of the '40's and '50's.

77 posted on 12/07/2008 1:55:50 PM PST by chuckles
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To: chuckles; GGpaX4DumpedTea; Campion
A careful study of the Bible reveals there will be a Rapture and IMHO, it will precede the Tribulation and Second coming.

The Bible teaches that there will, indeed, be a "catching up" of the saints (1 Thess. 4:17). The purpose of Paul’s instruction was to assure the saints in Thessalonica that those saints who had "fallen asleep" (i.e., preceded them in death) would not miss out on the Lord’s return. "[T]hat we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Apparently the Thessalonian church was given to all kinds of eschatological rumors and error (cf. 2 Thess. 2:1-3).

Until 1830 this "catching up" was considered by the Church to be the Second Coming from the vantage point of the saints. Around 1830 a new theology arrived on the scene which eventually became known as dispensationalism. One of the fundamental tenants of dispensationalism is the radical distinction between Israel and the Church. So, in order to preserve this radical distinction, the followers of this new theology had to invent the secret so-called "pre-tribulational rapture" in which the Church was removed from the world so God could pour His divine wrath out upon physical Israel during the so-called "seven year great tribulation". Dispensationalism believes that physical Israel is destined for great future divine wrath, but the Church is exempt from wrath (cf. 1 Thess. 5:9). Voila, you need a secret rapture to get the Church off the earth.

In reality the secret rapture, future seven year tribulation, and a whole host of other doctrines espoused by futurist dispensationalists are not found in the Bible. They are only "discovered" (as they originally discovered for the firs time in 1830) by reading the Bible through dispensational glasses with the assumptions and presuppositions of dispensationalism.

A truly careful study will reveal the hallmark of dispensationalism, the secret, separate rapture, to not be true. Careful study will reveal that the "rapture" and Second coming are, in fact, the same event. There is no reason to use the term "rapture" when one correctly understands the biblical subject of eschatology. Second Coming is good enough.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15)

78 posted on 12/07/2008 3:09:02 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; chuckles; Campion

Top Cat, your comments are correct. The dispensational teaching was originally from John Nelson Darby, who also began teaching a “Pre-tribulation Rapture” - your dating of approx 1830 is also correct. I am well acquainted with this teaching, I grew up with it. My great grandfather was a follower of Darby. This was all in the early beginnings of the Plymouth Brethren Movement. Darby was a prolific writer and also translated the Bible into several languages (a good translation, though still pretty much in KJV English).

Scofield was a student of Darby’s and much of the dispensationalism in his Reference Notes come from Darby. I credit (or blame) Scofield with making dispensationalism and Pre-Trib Rapture teachings so prevalent among Fundamentalist/Evangelical teachings and beliefs today. LeHay and Jenkins may have to answer for leading believers astray with their Left Behind series.

Whatever kind of tribulation lies ahead, God and His Word assures us we will be taken “through”, just as Noah and all those on the Ark with him were taken through. All those not on the Ark were taken out, to judgment. In Matthew, it speaks of two working in the field, one taken, one left (left behind). What the Left Behind teachers are missing is that the one taken is the one taken to judgment.

You are correct in pointing out that the purpose of Paul’s instructions to the saints in Thessalonica (and to us) was assuring them that their loved ones already departed through death would indeed be a part of what is to come.

Much of the Tribulation teaching comes from what is in Revelation. John addressed cover letters to each of the seven churches in Asia Minor, and sent these along with what is written in Revelation to them. I believe that these Christians fully understood what John wrote. There is basically nothing that is written in Revelation that is not already found in the Old Testament, and most of it is found in Genesis.

Why are we in this generation so stupid and ignorant of what God is telling us in Revelation? First, we fail to read carefully the first sentence in the book - it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is neither about black helicopters nor about nuclear war. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Now, if we are indeed the body of Christ, how can we, the body exist without a head? We can’t. Jesus, the head of the body, must also be here too. He is here with me, in my heart, and I yield (not perfectly yet) to having His mind in me. Finally, if he is indeed in my heart, and if I have yielded to Him, as my Lord, having His mind in me - I don’t have to be concerned about when He comes, and how. There were 10 virgins, 5 prepared, 5 not - BE PREPARED!


79 posted on 12/07/2008 5:51:31 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: meandog

wait...is this an Obama birth certificate thread?


80 posted on 12/07/2008 5:53:21 PM PST by PhatHead
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To: rigelkentaurus
Interesting how some many key facets of his life work on key Jewish calendar holidays. Must be coincidences? hmmm

I concur with you that the interpretation of those holidays, feasts, and holy days are to be interpreted by His Word, not interpreting Him by the tradition.

81 posted on 12/07/2008 6:52:41 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Just mythoughts
I can't see where the Father ever told us to celebrate the winter solstice. Granted that its a part of the natural cycle, but the calendar that God gave to Israel is lunar, not solar, and does not track either solstices or equinoxes.

Shalom.

82 posted on 12/08/2008 6:10:04 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman
I can't see where the Father ever told us to celebrate the winter solstice. Granted that its a part of the natural cycle, but the calendar that God gave to Israel is lunar, not solar, and does not track either solstices or equinoxes. Shalom.

I too read NO command for celebration of winter solstice. However, acknowledgment that the winter solstice is the date of conception is plenty identifiable by Luke. In Genesis 1:14 God did say that he put the lights in the firmament of heaven for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

I also do not find where the moon was used to establish when the 'first' month would begin. The sun or solar establishes when the seasons change.

83 posted on 12/08/2008 6:51:43 AM PST by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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