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I Love that Woman! My Unworthy Reflections on The Immaculate Conception
Fighting Irish Thomas ^ | 12-08-06 | Tom O'Toole

Posted on 12/08/2008 6:45:30 AM PST by mlizzy



Today's feast day is more than Pope Pius IX's 1854 infallible proclamation, as important as that Dogma was and is. Today's feast day, which issues not only from the Papal Bull Ineffabilis Deus but its echo at the Grotto in Lourdes four years later, demonstrates that the Virgin Mary, with all Her wonderful titles, wants to be known by that name. And the reason is not so much that she was conceived without sin, but that through her humility before God She continued without sin until the day She was assumed into Heaven. It is for this reason Her prayer is so powerful, Her intercession so necessary.

(Excerpt) Read more at fightingirishthomas.net ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholic; conception; feastday; immaculate

1 posted on 12/08/2008 6:45:30 AM PST by mlizzy
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To: AnAmericanMother

Pinged you to see painting in the orig post.


2 posted on 12/08/2008 6:50:49 AM PST by jla (Admirer of Jefferson, Reagan & Palin)
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To: jla

Thanks, I appreciate it! Looks like a Murillo - very beautiful.


3 posted on 12/08/2008 6:52:17 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

I am NOT pursuing a flamewar, just trying to be sure I understand what people believe...is it the view of the Catholic leadership and therefore it’s people that Mary, physical mother of Jesus, held not only “most favored woman” status at his birth for being sinless, but also, from that point forward, never, ever, sinned? That is, she was a sinless human?


4 posted on 12/08/2008 6:58:34 AM PST by 50sDad (-/\/\/\- Obama's coming; be a Resistor!)
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To: jla
It IS a Murillo - it was one of his favorite subjects and he painted it often.

I think this version has the most beautiful face, but here are three for comparison: Murillo and the Immaculate Conception

5 posted on 12/08/2008 6:59:41 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: mlizzy

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

And for those who didn’t already know.

Amen. The Hail Mary is based on these passages from the Bible:

Luke 1:28-35, 42-48.


6 posted on 12/08/2008 7:03:08 AM PST by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: 50sDad
Yes, it's o.k., I know you're not trying to flame.

It's difficult to accept for a lot of people because they think that somehow the Virgin Mary herself had something to do with her sinlessness - that it was through her virtue or her own conduct that she did not sin. And that of course would be preposterous and even monstrous in one of God's creatures.

That is not the case -- it was entirely through God's miraculous grace and glory that the Virgin was preserved from sin, not by any means through her own merit.

If you think about it, it does make sense. God works so many miracles, major and minor, that he would certainly preserve His own mother from sin. As the new Ark of the Covenant, bearing God within her own body and - perhaps more importantly - having the nurture and raising of Him until He began His public ministry, the Virgin Mary would have to have the strongest divine support to shoulder that awesome responsibility.

7 posted on 12/08/2008 7:06:01 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: 50sDad

Yes.


8 posted on 12/08/2008 7:11:19 AM PST by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: 50sDad

CCC 966 states:
Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death. The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


9 posted on 12/08/2008 7:11:43 AM PST by Husker
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To: Husker

Also:

CCC 411

The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve”. Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.


10 posted on 12/08/2008 7:15:12 AM PST by Husker
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To: AnAmericanMother
It IS a Murillo - it was one of his favorite subjects and he painted it often.

You are amazing! Is there anything that you're not knowledgeable of?

but here are three for comparison: Murillo and the Immaculate Conception

Thank you. I won't expound but I love our. Blessed Virgin.

11 posted on 12/08/2008 7:15:29 AM PST by jla (Admirer of Jefferson, Reagan & Palin)
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To: 50sDad
I am NOT pursuing a flamewar, just trying to be sure I understand what people believe...is it the view of the Catholic leadership and therefore it’s people that Mary, physical mother of Jesus, held not only “most favored woman” status at his birth for being sinless, but also, from that point forward, never, ever, sinned? That is, she was a sinless human?

Thank for the question. The Church teaches that Mary, from the moment of conception was without sin due to the merits of her Son, Jesus Christ.

But Mary was not only "most favored woman" (poor translation) but "Full of Grace".

12 posted on 12/08/2008 7:15:39 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Thanks very. Although first a Christian, and second a Baptist, I view unity in the overall Body of Christian believers to be something we need to dearly hold to in These Days. Your explaination is workable across the Faith, and helps me.


13 posted on 12/08/2008 7:22:15 AM PST by 50sDad (-/\/\/\- Obama's coming; be a Resistor!)
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To: frogjerk; 50sDad
Just to add my two cents to the issue of the Angelic Salutation (since I read Greek), the original Greek with which Gabriel saluted the Virgin Mary is kecaritwmenh. It's an interesting word, because it's a complicated verb form in Greek that indicates a perpetual existence from forever - my grammar is getting shaky, but it's I believe a passive perfect participle - in other words, Mary was "graced" always and continuing and completely. Which is why the verb is often translated as "full of grace".
14 posted on 12/08/2008 7:26:19 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: frogjerk

That does make sense that she would need to be sinless. If Jesus was also fully human, how could a sinner partake in raising him? I would have to agree with the church.


15 posted on 12/08/2008 7:27:49 AM PST by Soothesayer (The United States of America Rest in Peace November 4 2008)
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To: 50sDad
Thank you!

Dear Ben Franklin said that we must all hang together or we will most assuredly hang separately.

Like a family, Christians may have disagreements among themselves but must never forget the truths we hold in common against the secular and destructive World.

I'm a convert, by the way, my ggg grandfather was a Baptist Deacon and would no doubt be shocked.

16 posted on 12/08/2008 7:28:28 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: jla
Art's just a hobby of mine, especially religous art.

But yes, I love the Blessed Virgin too! I think of her as reaching down to me and helping to lift me up. And my good Saint Anthony of Padua is like my strong and brave big brother who gives me a boost when I need it . . .


17 posted on 12/08/2008 7:33:24 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: Soothesayer
That does make sense that she would need to be sinless. If Jesus was also fully human, how could a sinner partake in raising him? I would have to agree with the church.

Also, I think many people get hung up on the sinless part but Adam and Eve were sinless before the fall so God has no problem creating a sinless creature. Obviously Christ was sinless but, He is the only begotten Son, not created. An enormous difference.

18 posted on 12/08/2008 7:39:30 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: Soothesayer
That does make sense that she would need to be sinless. If Jesus was also fully human, how could a sinner partake in raising him? I would have to agree with the church.

Another point, this Holy Mystery shows the most incredible virtue of humility, Christ obedient to His Mother; God obedient to His creature. A thought to ponder upon forever!

19 posted on 12/08/2008 7:44:37 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: AnAmericanMother
I'm a convert, by the way, my ggg grandfather was a Baptist Deacon and would no doubt be shocked.

I hold that some things form our core beliefs (The Trinity, Christ as both man and God, His gift as complete salvation with our Faith in that as core, and our Works as a thank you to him for our pardon) are the Foundation of the unity of Christians. A lot of the other stuff is Tradition that is the beams, paint, drywall, and stained glass that makes the walls of our individual churches. As Screwtape might opine, one good way to make Christians ripe for folly is to get them to spend all their time arguing internally. With Muslims at the gates, and the civil government of many nations working at opening those gates in the name of diversity, it is well that we should stand together in the Faith, brother.

20 posted on 12/08/2008 7:57:47 AM PST by 50sDad (-/\/\/\- Obama's coming; be a Resistor!)
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To: 50sDad
Amen! and amen!

What C.S. Lewis called "mere Christianity" - the parts we can all agree upon.

And you're right, the barbarians are at the gates. I find I have far more in common with the orthodox (that is to say truly believing) Baptist, Evangelical, Russian/Greek Orthodox, or Jew than with the watered-down middle-of-the-road liberal denominations or with the frankly liberal screaming loons like the Episcopalians (of which I used to be one - but not liberal and rarely screaming).

21 posted on 12/08/2008 8:00:39 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he has saved us, by the washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost. (Titus 3:5) For ther is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5)


22 posted on 12/08/2008 9:08:35 AM PST by deepseaangler (deepseaangler)
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To: deepseaangler
Of course. That's exactly what I was saying.

The grace which filled the Blessed Virgin so completely that no room was left for sin is "the gift of God" - not by any merit or works on her part but the "washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost". God assured that His home on earth was spotless and fitting.

Mary is not Christ -- she always humbly points the way to him. "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do." John 2:5.

23 posted on 12/08/2008 9:15:06 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: frogjerk
Another point, this Holy Mystery shows the most incredible virtue of humility, Christ obedient to His Mother

Yep...the only thing that stands in your way is the Scripture that God wrote for us to read...

You think Jesus was obedient to Mary when he ran off and she couldn't find him for a few days???

Quite a fairytale that has evolved...

24 posted on 12/08/2008 2:47:20 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Soothesayer
That does make sense that she would need to be sinless. If Jesus was also fully human, how could a sinner partake in raising him? I would have to agree with the church.

Kind of like Superman and 'his' parents, eh??? God tells us in His written words to us that ALL are sinful...

25 posted on 12/08/2008 2:50:06 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
Another point, this Holy Mystery shows the most incredible virtue of humility, Christ obedient to His Mother Yep...the only thing that stands in your way is the Scripture that God wrote for us to read... You think Jesus was obedient to Mary when he ran off and she couldn't find him for a few days??? Quite a fairytale that has evolved...

Too bad your wrong about this. Are you saying that Jesus broke the 4th Commandment? I don't think so.

26 posted on 12/08/2008 6:07:17 PM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: Iscool
Kind of like Superman and 'his' parents, eh??? God tells us in His written words to us that ALL are sinful...

I guess Jesus is sinful in *your* interpretation then...very messed up.

27 posted on 12/08/2008 6:08:45 PM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: frogjerk
I guess Jesus is sinful in *your* interpretation then...very messed up.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Is that too difficult for you??? Do you need someone to interpret that for you??? Is God telling you that Jesus was a sinner???

28 posted on 12/08/2008 6:21:53 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
You don't understand Romans 3. Read that verse in the context of the other verses, such as:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have dealt deceitfully. The venom of asps is under their lips. 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery in their ways: 17 And the way of peace they have not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes

(Rom 3)

Does that describe "all"?

29 posted on 12/08/2008 6:27:17 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
Does that describe "all"?

Nope...But the verses you left out do...

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: (that includes Mary) that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

There is no righteousness other than God's righteousness...Doesn't matter how good you are...You can't fabricate your own righteousness...

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

30 posted on 12/08/2008 7:51:53 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: A.A. Cunningham; Iscool
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

33 posted on 12/08/2008 8:19:15 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: frogjerk

Mary was full of grace. She gave a perfect “yes”. She had to give a perfect yes. After all she was the mother of Jesus who was sinless in his divine human nature.


34 posted on 12/08/2008 8:28:28 PM PST by prayerfullywaiting
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To: Iscool
Nope...

Thanks. I appreciate straighforward answer.

Indeed, no one, the Blessed Mother of God included, can fabricate her own righteousness.

35 posted on 12/08/2008 9:20:20 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Iscool

Interesting how you avoid the first question I posed. Oh well...


36 posted on 12/09/2008 6:27:28 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: mlizzy

MODS: I was told I need to ask you to mark this Catholic Caucus. Thank you!


37 posted on 12/11/2008 2:42:06 PM PST by mlizzy
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