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To: netmilsmom
I think Vatican II was poorly implemented. A radical change like Vatican II should have been accompanied by strict quality control measures and significant instruction to parishioners.

Prior to Vatican II, many people went to Mass out of guilt/tradition/obligation, not celebration of the Eucharist. That didn't change after Vatican II because people didn't understand why the changes were made. All of the efforts to connect the Mass to the parishioners were lost. But the changes that were made were abused by those who had their own agenda...leading to Liberation theology and other nonsense.

I think just as many people would have left the Church had Vatican II not been implemented.

I personally prefer the Mass in the vernacular, but I am appalled at some of the abuses that Vatican II allowed.

8 posted on 01/02/2009 10:18:41 AM PST by kidd (Obama: The triumph of hope over evidence)
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To: kidd

>>I think just as many people would have left the Church had Vatican II not been implemented.<<

You make tons of sense. VII needed much more education before it was actually implemented. However, while I agree that just as many may have left the church, I don’t think it would have happened as quickly as it did, as in a generation.

The reason I say that is because if one looks back to the times, they were tumultuous anyway. In the middle of it, the Church did a massive change and the liberals ran with it. When one questioned any change, one was dismissed (and that I DO remember). Because of that, people felt marginalized. As it went from bad to worse, no one stopped a thing. If they did, they were basically told, like it or lump it. The politics came in. The Lectors and EMHCs became “just a little better” than Pete in the Pew. They acted that way too. So why bother to show up?

As the liturgy looked more and more like a Lutheran service, Catholics felt nothing like nothing special. For the devout, they lived with it. For the doubting, they left.

People may not have gone to “celebrate” the Eucharist but they did go to be with Our Lord and receive grace. The problem became the “celebration” and the total lack of reverence felt by the people who went to adore and not celebrate.


12 posted on 01/02/2009 10:41:16 AM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: kidd; netmilsmom
Prior to Vatican II, many people went to Mass out of guilt/tradition/obligation, not celebration of the Eucharist. That didn't change after Vatican II because people didn't understand why the changes were made. All of the efforts to connect the Mass to the parishioners were lost. But the changes that were made were abused by those who had their own agenda...leading to Liberation theology and other nonsense.

A truly astute observation. One of the best summations I have seen on this topic. Kudos!

31 posted on 01/02/2009 12:42:37 PM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: kidd

“A radical change like Vatican II should have been accompanied by strict quality control measures and significant instruction to parishioners.”

ROFLOL and crying at the same time over your words. Man made Quality Assurance measures are left best in the work place. Let the Holy Trinity be Our Assurance. The Mystical Body of Christ has no need for quality control and you can’t apply TQM or JIT to real faith as you must approach it as a child.

Significant instruction and inculcation already was given to the parishioners back in 1960 as they understood their “ordo” better than most Catholics today. This was an age when all Catholics understood latin and were quite literate compared to today’s college graduates. Part of the reason the changes survived was the dumbing down of the culture and the concurrent social revolution of the 60s.

Some would say the poor implementation of the radical changes was part and parcel of the goal of Vatican II if it was intended to undermine the real faith of Catholicism.


47 posted on 01/02/2009 7:54:01 PM PST by Domestic Church (AMDG)
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