Wise Men from the East [Ecumenical - with a question]

Insight Scoop ^ | January 4, 2008 | Sandra Miesel

[NYer]

Ancient Christendom spoke of multiple manifestations (initially including the Nativity) by linking the revelation of the newborn Christ with his later baptism in the Jordan and his first miracle at Cana. These key points in his mission, which were imagined to have occurred on the same calendar date, also used to be celebrated in the pre-Vatican II Roman breviary.

Today, in the Maronite Church, we celebrated the Sunday of the Finding (of our Lord) in the Temple. On Tuesday we will celebrate Epiphany - a Holy Day of Obligation. It struck me odd that the liturgical calendar would place Epiphany after the Finding in the Temple. The explanation was quite illuminating - an epiphany! Epiphany means “revelation” or “manifestation”. In the East, the feast of Epiphany represents Christ’s ‘manifestation’ in the River Jordan when He was baptized. It is for that reason that holy water is blessed and distributed on that day. This is the more ancient understanding of Epiphany in the Church.

It’s interesting to see once again the impact of VCII. Do you suppose that one day the Catholic Church, both West and East, will come up with a standardized calendar?

[G8 Diplomat]

According to the preist’s homily today, the Magi were either from Iran or what is now Iraq.

So the word magi/magus comes from Latin....the Arabic word is majus. Interesting similarity...

[AnAmericanMother]

Interesting point that was raised in Sir Walter Scott's Quentin Durward:

The only oath that a German mercenary soldier (the famous Landsknechten) could be counted on to keep was the one sworn on Caspar, Melchior, and Balthazar. They called them "the Dead Men of Köln".

[NYer]

According to the preist’s homily today, the Magi were either from Iran or what is now Iraq.

Interesting ... did he say how he arrived at that conclusion? Is it possible one may have been from Syria and or Egypt?

[SolidWood]

It can be ruled out that they were from Syria or even Egypt. They were "from the East", so Egypt can be ruled out right away. Also the names Balthazar (Babylonian), Caspar (Persian) and Melchoir (Persian) make their origin apparent. Magis are Zoroastrian priests... and the Persian empire at that time was that of the Parthians (an Iranian warrior dynasty that ended the Greek Seleucid rule).

A map of the Parthian Empire shows their westward reach:

[alloysteel]

The “wise men from the East” were probably Zoroastrians, religious scholars who were not themselves Hebrew, but shared many of the same beliefs. Before there was Christianity, there were those among the “gentiles” who believed and were strongly invested in the coming of the Messiah. This was probably rooted in the close association with the Persians (Farsi) and the Hebrew tribes some 2,500 years ago, during the “Babylonian Captivity”, before the return of the Hebrew tribes to Jerusalem.

And this was LONG before that apostasy that arose in the 7th Century AD, known as “Islam”.

Islam, by force of arms, utterly destroyed the Zoroastrians, and the few remaining practitioners of that faith reside today in India. They are not Hindus, they are not in the least interested in what Muslims have to offer, and they do not proselytize at all.

[SolidWood]

Beside the Parsis in India and Zanzibar, there are still some twenty thousand Zoroastrians left in Iran. Lovely people. I knew a family of them in Tehran during the 1970s.

When the devout Muslims during their celebrations where beating their chests and heads, crying and screaming, emenating an aura of darkness and gloom, the Zoroastrians were celebrating their peaceful and joyful traditions, laughing and singing.

The contrast between that Arab cult and the true Iranian culture couldn't have been more obvious.

[G8 Diplomat]

did he say how he arrived at that conclusion?

He said it is based on the languages the Magi spoke. He didn't go into any more detail.

[Mad Dawg]

I though they were from Orientar.

"We three kings of Orientar."

[delacoert]

Some things are deeply private... not easy to tell...

My sister spent so much time in Kölner Dom about 20 years ago...

Over the years, she has spoken to me about those times in ways that are very difficult to describe... because the things she was saying were difficult for her explain... the closest kept things... right down to the very most beautiful part of the soul.

Epiphany is the most beautiful of all moments. It is granted by the Savior.

Thank you for this post. It has been deeply meaningful.

[Lee N. Field]

Who were these gift-bearing kings, these Wise Men of the East?

"I don't know." is probably the best answer here. No firm number, and "from the east" can be anything from Parthia to Cathay.

The diaspora stemming from the Babylonian captivity had surely splashed Jews, and Jewish scripture and writings, all over the east. I've seen speculation that they might be from a school founded by Daniel. Only speculation.

I'm more interested in what Matthew is doing, telling us about them.

[annalex]

Zoroastrians

This brings back the episode. I worked in a small software development and consulting lab, and on Friday the boss gave us free lunch. The free lunch combined the two companies that he owned, so often we would see new people at lunch, that we otherwise would bnot be familiar with, from that other, larger, company.

I shared the ride to the other company's lunch room with a Hindu friend of mine, whom I'll call Gupta. The lunch was over and I waited for Gupta to finish a conversation he was having with another Hindu gentleman in Gujarati. I positioned myself at the table and followed the conversation in the language I didn't know, sort of like dogs do. Finally, Gupta introduced me and we all switched to English. The other Hindu gentleman was very, very Hindu looking, with a long nose and dark features, and an unmistakable accent.

- Where are you from?, he inquired of me.
- I am Russian. I've lived in America for a long time, I explained.
- A! I am the Russian also, the Hindu gentleman declared.
- You are also Russian? You don't look Russian. Where were your parents from?
- We are all from India, of course, but we are all the Russians. Tell me, friend, what makes you the Russian?

I explained that my both parents were Russian, that I was born in St. Petersburg, etc. That did not satisfy him.

- But what makes you the Russian now? In your heart?

I went on to explain my being baptized Orthodox, and something about the Russian language.

- I still don't understand. We are the Russians and we know why we are the Russians. Our entire village is the Russian. We were the Russian for centuries. We were the Russians before the Hindus were Hindu. How come you are the Russian?

At this point the conversation entered a twilight zone. I imagined a village of Russian hinduized peasants wearing shoulder-collared shirts and birch bark shoes, all speaking in the broken English of his and getting college degrees in America. He probed something in my soul that I imagined had to do with Dostoyevsky. Finally, Gupta gently suggested that we perhaps should go back to work.

In the car Gupta had a pregnant silence, and then he asked:

- You still don't realize what went on?

- No, I said. Can we stop for a beer?

- He is Zoroastrian. He heard you say you were Zoroastrian. He was very surprised. There are not that many Zoroastrians even in India.

- Why did he not realize what I am from all the references to St. Petersburg and Orthodoxy, and Russian language?

- [timid smile].

[SolidWood]

LOL. You’d sure make a great Zorouassian. ;o)

[annalex]

Judge for yourself.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

They probably were Jews of the Dispersion still in Babylon and beyond the river.

They would still have the Holy Books which for told of the Messiah's birth and were looking for him while the Jewish priests in Judea paid no attention to it.

According to Dwayne Edward Spencer, the Magoi were “powerful ones” while the Sophi were “wise men” of Persia where most of the dispersed Jews still lived.

Why would Pagans be interested in anything happening in Judea at that time?

[dangus]

>> Why would Pagans be interested in anything happening in Judea at that time? <<

In the bible, they voice their motives quite plainly: they expect him to become a great king. Since Caesar was king, he would seemingly have to be an amazing political force to topple Rome. The magi wanted in on his good side.

Ya cant make them out to be Jews; they were plainly astrologers, for even if “magi” can’t be certainly translated to “astrologers,” they speak of reading the stars. Jews would not study the stars.

[dangus]

...which is not to say they weren’t heavily influenced by Jews...

[oprahstheantichrist]

"They would still have the Holy Books which for told of the Messiah's birth and were looking for him...."

I've also heard speculation that a new star pointing to the location of the baby messiah may have been prophecied by Daniel, and his writings may have still existed in Babylon at that time, but have since been lost or destroyed.

Makes sense to me.

[NYer]

Thank you for the map and details about the magi. Would that for just an hour or a day, we could step back in time to witness some historical event. There are some events I would definitely not want to experience ;-)