Cities suffering pain of loss (RC Diocese of Albany releases list of 33 parish closings)

Times Union ^ | January 18, 2009 | Marc Parry

[NYer]

I’ll guess most of these are in black neighborhoods or those with crowds of Muslim immigrants.

No

Why does the Church desert the poor they purport to serve, nor do we evangelize the heathens in our country?

The Church has not deserted the poor. These 'poor' have deserted the Church. The majority of these churches are in cities that once offered work to European immigrants. The churches were built 100+ years ago. They are large and costly to maintain. The descendants of the immigrants moved away about 50 years ago. Only a handful of families still practice their faith.

You are right, however, in that the diocese has done nothing to evangelize the current residents of these neighorhoods.

[NYer]

These were people who sincerely wanted to draw closer to the Lord, but they didn't have the tools. They simply had had poor teaching in their formative years.

From your perspective as a convert, it must seem absolutely appalling. In reality, it should not be a surprise. Most cradle catholics inherit their faith. You, on the other hand, have chosen it. I have had a similar experience with the Maronites. Like you, I was stunned that they did not know the Catholic faith or their Maronite heritage. Initially, I was so moved by the depth of their liturgical prayers and surprised by their indifference. Over time I came to appreciate that the ones who showed up for Holy Day masses and were regular attendees at Sunday mass were, for the most part, individuals like myself who had wandered through the desert and found this oasis where God is worshiped in a reverent manner.

We had sections today on the Divine Mercy Chaplet and the Rosary, as well as discussions on other important Church Feasts. Imagine my amazement when CRADLE CATHOLICS did not know the following:

In all fairness to these women, the Divine Mercy is relatively new to the US. The devotion is slowly spreading, thanks in great part to exposure through EWTN. Traditionalist catholics are probably the most resistent to its acceptance.

As for the mysteries of the rosary, this popular devotion nearly disappeared post VCII. It wasn't until JPII wrote the Luminous Mysteries that some NO catholics returned to praying the rosary. Traditionalist catholics have always embraced the rosary but I'm not certain they also include the Luminous Mysteries.

As for the story of the Virgin of Guadalupe, it wasn't until the canonization of Juan Diego that any attention was given, outside of Mexico. Once again, it was EWTN that brought this to light through coverage of JPII's visit to Mexico City and the Shrine of the Virgin of Guadelup.

You have been given an extraordinary opportunity to witness a group of catholic women even attending a retreat. Like the rosary, making retreats (or pilgrimages) faded post VCII. It consoles me immensely to know that, in your parish, there is a resurgence of women being drawn to these events. In today's fast paced world, anyone who takes time to go on a retreat or pilgrimage, is one with a sincere interest in developing a closer relationship with our Lord. This is indeed good news!

As you probably know, my 'enthusiasm' with the Maronite Catholic Church led to a deeper desire to grow spritually. That in turn brought me back to the CCC and reading Scripture. Now, as Director for Religious Education, I try to pass along this enthusiasm to parents and children. Alas, it is met with the usual excuses - most of which are offered up by the parents who prefer to sleep in than go to church. With only 15 classes spread out over the year, our concentration must be on the basics of our faith - from Abraham to the ministry of Jesus, His death, resurrection and ascension and the birth of the Church. Each class, we begin with basic prayers - the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be. I have discussed the possibility of children's Eucharistic Adoration. Father and I both recognize the struggle to get parents to bring their children to the Sacrament of Confession, much less an 'hour' spent adoring our Lord. So, you can be certain that, despite our best efforts, when these children become adults, they will not be familiar with the Rosary or the Divine Mercy chaplet. We took a small group of young adults on retreat last year to the Shrine of the Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA. They enjoyed the day and even asked to return. We will continue to introduce and reinforce these practices despite the struggle. Parents too often mistake footbal practice as being more important than serving God.

I hope you shared your conversion story with the women at the retreat. Your witness to the faith would be a wellspring from which the ladies can draw strength. Pax et Bonum

[NYer]

Thank you again, for sharing your faith journey. It pretty much corroborates what I suspected based on experiences from others I have met in this forum. It also parallels my own journey. If you don’t mind my asking, were born after Vatican Council II or do you have any recollection of the church from before the Council. Again ... thank you for the response.

[Miss Marple]

I will be sharing my conversion when the women I was on retreat with host the next retreat in July. This program relies on the "pass it on" theory. Each group of people who go on retreat host the next.

I will be on Team 24, which means that I will be the 24th group to host a retreat. The men run parallel to us, so they are also going to be hosting in July.

Our parish has been doing this for 12 years. It is an excellent program with an emphasis on deepening one's faith and allowing the Holy Spirit into one's life.

I personally believe this program, along with the Perpetual Adoration chapel we have, has made our parish more involved and also has given us so many vocations for the priesthood (right now we have 10).

[hunter112]

You're very welcome, and I was born back in 1955. I do remember the Vatican Council II reforms, and was not put off by them, I found them rather welcoming. My parents embraced these reforms also, as well as some of the things in the church that the oldtimers disdain, such as the guitar Mass. Mom would play Ray Repp albums on the stereo a lot.

Those changes weren't the problem. If anything, they kept me in longer than I otherwise would have stayed. Again, I did not come here to discuss which book or treatise is better than others, I just expressed my belief that many Catholics are going to have to steel themselves to endure the rounds of church closings that have been going on.

[pepperdog]

It used to be more wonderful, back when the Mass was in Latin and you heard it in the language that you had been schooled in no matter where you went. Vatican II was a disaster and it has not finished damaging the Church. JMHO

[NYer]

I did not come here to discuss which book or treatise is better than others

Nor I. What caught my attention in your original post was this comment:

In my case, after drifting around through a variety of other Christian denominations and non-Christian faith traditions, I just decided about a dozen years ago that it was all completely unreliable. I see the various religious traditions of the world fractionalizing more and more as time goes on, and have concluded that it's all because of the need to run religion as a business, or some sort of power trip. Every denomination of a similar religious tradition has built up it's own fiefdom, and consolidation with reconciliation would knock some from their privileged positions within the hierarchy.

It reminded me of Cardinal Ratzinger's homily at the pre-conclave Mass in April 2005. He said:

How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true.
Full Text

Growing up, I don't recall seeing so many different christian denominations - just the mainline protestant churches. It's only in recent years that so many new branches have sprung from the Lutheran, Anglican and Baptist Churches. Like you, it confused me. I kept wondering why this was occuring. In tracing them back to their origins, I discovered the answer.

Thank you for the feedback. Your journey exemplifies what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote. To that he added:

Truth and love coincide in Christ. To the extent that we draw close to Christ, in our own lives too, truth and love are blended. Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like "a clanging cymbal" (I Cor 13: 1).

May you find your way to the source of Truth and Love.

Pax et Bonum

[RobbyS]

<1>I can fathom that being good to each other will make the world a better place, but ethical people do not need an ancient book of interpreted rules to do this. With respect, I think this makes no sense at all. Ethics do not come out of thin air, but from a morality. Reading the Pentateuch last year, particularly the part that begins with the story of Abraham, I see how such rules brought order into the lives of some very unruly people. My favorite story is that of Jacob beginning with his cheating of his rather thick-headed twin brother out of his birthright right to the time of his death in Egypt. There is nothing saintly, holy, pious, about this guy. What pulls his life together is his connection with and loyalty to, the god of Abraham and Issac. His sons are a mess, not good guys at all, but then there is Joseph, what the Jews call a "righteous man," what we Christians call saints. And what they provide is a guide to good behavior, and they are all "touched" by the hand of God. Now when one of these men is a Moses, he provide more than just a model: he provides a "way." That way is except for the rare genius, something that is the property of a community. The community provides you with a moral compass, and even if you leave it, it continues to serve you. If you want. For many who do leave, however, it is just something they eventually throw away. I submit that most do.

[hunter112]

Ethics do not come out of thin air, but from a morality.

I will agree that is where ethics started from, but we have moved beyond that. For instance, slavery is just a "given" in the holy books of every world religion. We have progressed in our thinking to have as part of an ethical code the idea that one person is not allowed to own another. We didn't get that from the ancient texts, we got that from reasoning.

You can argue that the reasoning that led to the abolition of slavery in Western traditions came from re-interpreting the words of the ancient texts. If that's the case, then I submit to you that any part of those ancient texts can be similarly reasoned away from. Christians do that all the time when each sect picks and chooses what parts of the Old Testament to keep, and which ones have been replaced by the New Testament.

[RobbyS]

Ethics is an effort to explain morality, just as theology is an effort to explain a faith. Morality and faith are matters of judgement and action. Reason can guide but not control us. Reason is best established by tradition. The anti-slavery movement historically was an impulse driven by faith, of enlightenment as understood by the Quakers, an impulse that was magnified by the Enthusiasts of the Great Awakening, the evangelicals. But the Quakers and Evangelicals drew from a long-ago rejection of slavery by the Christians of the Middle Ages. They had established the rule that no Christian should be enslaved, a rule that was modeled on the Jewish rule that a Jew could be enslaved only temporarily.
That belief is what tempered the serfdom of Europe, the continuing servility of the lower classes, which prevented the class system of England from being totally inflexible, a caste system.

I suggest you read Halevy’s History of the English People. Anti-slavery and democracy rose on the same tide of sentiment, as his thesis, which I accept, is that not only anti-slavery but social reform in general was driven by this sentiment, and gave great support to rational reforms proposed by Bentham and others. There is no doubt in my mind that Wilberforce was a greater man than any philosopher, or that Christianity contributed far more to the mitigation of this evil than rationalism.

I cannot accept your positivist bent, either that we have somehow grown “beyond” all this. No such impulse arose spontaneously in Islam; when the British more or less demanded of the Turkish Sultan that the slave trade be ended as a condition for aid, the Turks were nonplussed by such an odd “request.” Our experience shows as in the case of Nazi Germany how quickly slavery can be restored, because it IS a natural impulse of men with absolute power. The notion that humanity is now “enlightened” seems to me a dangerous misreading of human nature. Its flaws will remain with us. Cardinal Newman once said that it is more reasonable to expect that a great ship can be moored to the dock by silk threads than to think that human emotion can be secured by reason. With this I heartily concur.

[rochester_veteran]

Two years ago, this same bishop closed 5 of the 6 churches in nearby Watervliet. It was a painful slap in the face for that community. Since then, many of those parishioners have left the Catholic Church and now attend local Evangelical Churches. No effort has been made to call them home.

There's several folks that I know of that did the same thing here in Rachacha, under Bishop Clark's "shepherding". They joined Evangelical Churches. We had 13 Catholic schools at the end of the 2008 school year alone, while the DOR spent over $11 million to renovate Sacred Heart Cathedral. We are witnessing the modern day Pharisees in Albany and Rochester.

[rochester_veteran]

I just wanted to express that there are not a big bunch of people out there waiting to "come home", any more than the Heaven's Gate people's spaceships were coming from the other side of the sun to pick them up

I disagree with you hunter112. I was a fall away Catholic for over 20 years before I was called back home and I know of many others such as me.

BTW, the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and has been around for over 2000 years. How dare you compare our Church with the insanity of Heaven's Gate...

[hunter112]

I disagree with you hunter112. I was a fall away Catholic for over 20 years before I was called back home and I know of many others such as me.

Some will come back. I left it the first time when I was in high school, and came back about ten years later. Left again in another two years.

BTW, the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and has been around for over 2000 years. How dare you compare our Church with the insanity of Heaven's Gate...

Would you have felt better if I had compared it to Buddhism, which precedes Christianity by about four hundred years? The point is, there are not a big fat bunch of Catholics out there that will magically come back to the RCC if they hear a few words of Latin.

In any case, I was not comparing the religions directly, but I was just talking about the chances of a return to your church of a lot of people who have moved on to something else.