Posted on 01/29/2009 6:33:11 PM PST by markomalley
I have seen, numerous times here and otherwise, fundamentalists, charismatics, and evangelicals talking about "one world religion" being talked about as a sign of the end times.
In the same breath, I also see many of them pointing toward the Vatican as the source of that "one world religion."
Sometimes, I see Apoc 17 cited as the justification for that...sometimes other passages.
I have done some looking on the web to see if I can come up with a conclusive citation, but this has been met with more contradictions than conclusive resuls.
Bottom line: I see a contradiction between the verses I've seen on the subject (particularly the attempt to connect those verses and the Vatican) and the theology of the "one body" of Christ.
So, if one or more of my evangelical/ fundamentalist/ charismatic FRiends here can lay out the scriptural case for their assertion of:
- One world religion that claims itself to be Christian
- The claim that the Vatican is the source of that religion
I would appreciate it.
***NOTE: PLEASE DON'T JUST GIVE ME A LINK...LAY IT OUT FOR YOURSELF (cut/paste if you want, but don't send me on a web quest, please)****
ALSO, I am starting this thread as an *ECUMENICAL* Thread. Religion mod rules on ecumenical threads apply. I'd like to have an adult discussion on the subject. If it turns into potshots, I will ask the Religion Mod to lock the thread.
Thanks to all in advance.
ping
I believe the one world religion may be situated in Rome at the Vatican - but will not call itself distinctly Christian. There is something about Mystery Babylon - mystery being something that isn’t revealed yet and is veiled from the initial hearers until the time comes for it to be revealed - being situated on 7 hills. Of course, Rome comes to mind when you say 7 hills. Rome has the infrastructure and is not lacking apostate bishops and cardinals to the point that JP2 was concerned that he might be followed by an apostate. Some of the cardinals are very liberal ecumenically - welcoming Buddhists and others into the fold. JP2 once kissed a Koran and Benedict (like it or not) was said to have in the very least shown some credence to the Muslim faith. The one world church will not be the Catholic church, nor will it be Christian. But, it very well may be situated in Rome with an apostate Catholic at its helm.
Did you see the thread about having Obama as president forever? If that doesn’t sound like end times, I don’t know what does.
- The claim that the Vatican is the source of that religion..."
I'll have to think on it quite a while. But i don't think I'll find any Scripture that proves these points. Maybe we are looking up the wrong tree. Instead of searching for a "church" that becomes "political", maybe we should look out for the political movement that becomes "religious".
We would be wise to know our enemy. He certainly knows us.
Very wise words.
But isn’t our enemy the devil, the darkness, the evil of the world?
Yes.
We aren’t talking democrats, here. :)
“3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.”
Personally, I am undecided on the exact form this woman will take in the end times, but I'll get back to her later. The rest of the chapter goes on to give an exposition of what was revealed to John in this vision. The woman rides the Beast, but they are not the same thing apparently. The Beast is often referred to as the Anti-Christ, but the description in Revelation seems to apply to both an empire and the leader of that empire in the end-times. Here is the key part that leads me to believe that:
” 9”This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.”
Ok, so now for my take on it (just my opinion, so do your own due diligence):
“The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.”
In the bible, hills can refer to kingoms/nations, but there is also the reference to ancient pagan places of worship (”high places”), as well as the traditional site of strongholds, which may represent military strength. I think the most likely assumption is the seven hills are notable pagan kingdoms/empires. The woman sitting on them implies she is supported by them, elevated by them, they are the foundation for her, as Christ is the Rock on which the church is built.
“10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.”
This seems confirmation that the hills refer to kingdoms. It is clear they are not contemporaneous with each other, and they are not just actual hills, like the 7 hills of Rome. Five have fallen, so they existed on the Earth in the past but do not anymore. One exists currently, while the last is yet to appear. Note that, while John is viewing scenes from the future, the Angel is speaking to him in his present time. So this implies that the 6th kingdom exists as John is living. This should help us identify the kingdoms.
The description of the beast in this and other chapters is a clear reference to the Book of Daniel, Chapter 7 (and Chapter 2), which referred to a series of world empires. For purposes of length, I won't quote all of the relevant Daniel passages, but basically I believe the empires Daniel described can be identified thusly (in chronological order): Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Antichrist. Rome is followed not by a new kingdom which assumes dominion, but by a 10 part division (the toes of the statue, or the 10 horns of the 4th beast) of the existing kingdom. I am not sure of the exact identity of the 10 divisions, but they would seem to be nations formerly constituting the bulk of the Roman Empire. After the 10 horns, again there is no reference to a new people taking over dominion, only that 3 of the horns (kingdoms) are plucked up (conquered/destroyed), when a “little horn” (Antichrist) appears. Immediately after the little horn, Daniel is given a vision of the second coming and the Day of Judgement.
Continuing with Revelation 17, we get more information about the 10 kingdoms that directly precede the Antichrist:
“12”The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.””
So the kings only receive their kingdom (I believe this means dominion over other nations like the ancient world empires) near the very end of the world. They “make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome”. I think this means these kingdoms will be part of the force that assembles at Megiddo in the end to war against Christ at the second coming.
Pulling it all together, we know one of the 7 empires (hills) exists while John is alive. This can only refer to the Roman empire, as there was no other major world power in John's day, certainly not in the area which includes Israel, which is always the main focus of the Bible. One is yet to come, but Revelation 17 also continues:
“11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. “
So this empire is not in existence at the time John is speaking, but once existed, and is an eight empire/kingdom. He belongs to the seven, so this will not be an entirely new empire (like China or something), and is going to his destruction (the Antichrist empire is going to be completely annihilated by Christ).
Working backwards chronologically, here is my interpretation of all these correlations/symbols:
Antichrist Empire - Little horn of Daniel 7 & 2, 8th hill/empire. He “was, and is not” at the time John is receiving the vision. He “will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction.” Those living who are not saved will be amazed by the false miracle of his apparent resurrection. I believe this is the Antichrist appearing in bodily form, counterfeiting the second coming of Christ with false miracles.
10 Horns/Toes from Daniel 2 - 7th head/hill/empire. This empire is an outgrowth/offshoot of the ancient Roman empire. It will be led by 10 kings/kingdoms, though 3 will be removed when the Antichrist appears, while the rest continue under his leadership. Some believe this to be the EU, but I don't think it fits the bill. We probably won't see the true nature of this empire until shortly before the Antichrist appears. Perhaps it is some of the European nations, but they have not yet authority/dominion “for one hour”.
4th Beast of Daniel 7, Legs of Iron from Daniel 2, 6th head/hill/empire - Roman Empire, which existed at the time John received the Revelation.
3rd Beast of Daniel 7, Belly/Thighs of Brass Daniel 2, 5th head/hill/empire - Greek Empire, fallen at the time John received the Revelation.
2nd Beast of Daniel 7, Breast/Arms of Silver Daniel 2, 4th head/hill/empire - Medo-Persian Empire, fallen at the time John received the Revelation.
1st Beast of Daniel 7, Head of Gold of Daniel 2, 3rd head/hill/empire - Babylonian Empire, fallen at the time John recieved the Revelation.
At this point we go further back in history than Babylon, and Daniel visions of Chapter 7 & 2 begin with Babylon, so I am left to guess at the first 2 empires. Perhaps someone with more understanding of prophecy can find more concrete identification of them in the scripture, but I will tentatively say they are probably:
2nd head/hill/empire - Assyrian empire, fallen at the time John received the Revelation. Directly preceded the Babylonian empire. Notable for being the empire which carried off (most of) the northern 10 tribes of Israel into captivity.
1st head/hill/empire - Egyptian empire, fallen at the time John received the Revelation. Preceded the Assyrian empire. Notable for being the empire which put the sojourning Hebrews into captivity before the Exodus.
Note: Each of the historic empires (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome) all share one common thing besides being dominant in the known world of their day. They all conquered the land of Canaan, which God gave to the Hebrews as an eternal possession. They also all ruled over the Hebrews/Israel at some point during their empire. I suspect the coming 10 horned and Antichrist empires will also meet these conditions as well.
Back to the whore, Mystery, Babylon the Great. She does not seem to me to be a nation. She seems to be a twisted corruption of the image of the Church as Christ's bridegroom that is seen elsewhere in Revelation. She is called Mystery, and all the pagan religions have in common that they derive from Mystery religions, or cults involving secret initiation into occult mysteries. She is called “Babylon the Great”. Babylon was the site of the very first world empire of Nimrod, the site of the tower of Babel, the fountainhead of all pagan mystery religions. Babylon the Great implies not one particular false religion, but an amalgam, a synthesis perhaps, or all of them, or one which transcends all of them in domination. She is “Mother of Prostitutes”, which I take as spiritual prostitutes, a common Biblical symbol for idolaters, those who commit spiritual fornication with false idols. She is also mother of “Abominations of the Earth”, which I take to mean sins against the will of God. The first sin took place in the Garden of Eden, which, as situated on the Tigris and Euphrates, may well have been the site of Babylon in later days as well. She is “drunk with the blood of the saints”, I take this to mean she has participated in the martyring of God's faithful, as was (and still is) committed by pagan religions and religions based on paganism.
Summing all of this up, the whore seems to be a symbol of Satan's (and man's) use of pagan religions to counterfeit the true Gospel of the Lord. Perhaps in the end of days, a specific religion will arise to unite all pagan-derived religions and also will attempt to pass itself as “Christian” in order to lure those not truly sealed in Christ. Many have postulated this is the Catholic church, or will be derived from the Catholic church. At this point, I don't know enough to identify it so specifically, but I do believe the Catholic church has slid into many pagan practices since it's inception, so it being at least a part of this system would not be shocking to me. But to identify the whore with Catholicism alone is to miss the clear indication that this system has its origin in the very earliest days of mankind, and its roots existed long before any Pope sat in Rome.
The religion will not claim to be Christian but a composite of all religions. Tolerance is the keyword to the world religion (for all religions except Christianity and Judaism which will both be attacked because of their “intolerance”). The world government is held to be a 10 kingdom empire some believe to be a revival of the old Roman empire.
Mystery Babylon is indeed that - a Mystery. Nothing specifically spells out Rome. The 7 hills ‘may’ be a clue, but one can not be dogmatic about it, you are correct. There will be one world religion because all will have to worship the beast or lose their heads. The RCC makes sense to be involved if for no other reason that its extant infrastructure and influence. Falling in line with Satan’s false signs and wonders, I have often thought an apparition of ‘Mary’ might help things along a bit.
Personally, if we are in ‘that time’ prior to the culmination of things, I can think of 4 men who catch my eye when it comes to the ID of the AC as well. I don’t personally believe we will be here when his revealing occurs. But, there are some interesting characters on the world scene that do make one go hmmmmmmm.
I completely agree with you about the apparitions of Mary. The Bible is very clear there is no intercessor between the Father and man besides Christ. It also clearly prohibits prayers to the dead and veneration of saints and apostles, living or dead. Always, the Bible directs us to worship, venerate, and pray to God alone.
I have studied some of the more famous apparitions of Mary, such as Fatima, and the visions of Brigitte who was “given” the rosary. The Bible says that Satan can give visions and signs as well as God, and we are to judge their message against Scripture. In all cases I have studied, Marian apparitions teach some doctrine(s) directly contradictory to Scripture, thus they are wholly from Satan. When the Catholic church blessed these apparitions as being from God, and approved the content of their message, they put the stamp of the Catholic church’s authority on the work of Satan. I believe these apparitions, and others like them, will increase as we near the end. Satan will try, if it were possible, to deceive even the Elect.
Now, the Catholic church is not alone in these matters. The Orthodox church notably venerates Mary as well, and there are of course heresies and apostasies of a similar nature that are approved by other “Christian” churches (LDS, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists to name a few).
The devil can only do what God permits him to do. That's fundamental Christian theological truth.
If you know Fatima, you know it started with the Archangel Michael teaching the children to pray "O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy."
Why would the devil teach that prayer to anyone? Could he even teach that prayer to anyone, given that it involves calling on the name of Jesus for salvation? Why would the God who threatened people with a millstone for misleading children permit the devil to mislead children that way?
Jerusalem is also a city founded on 7 hills.
But Jerusalem isn’t ultimately going to be destroyed.
God will ultimately judge all. We have been warned to test the spirits. He didn’t put that in His Word just to hear himself speak. People will be deceived. He was warning us to be on the lookout for such deceptions and to test them by His Word.
The Devil mixes truth with untruth in order to more easily deceive those who are not grounded on the foundation of the Scripture. God does allow the Devil to tempt and test humanity, and to work false miracles. Christ himself said that these things would come to pass, are you saying Christ was lying? And the Devil had no problem quoting Scripture to Jesus himself in the wilderness, why should he have a problem twisting Christian principles and ideas to his purposes.
The parable of the millstone was not about literal children, it was a metaphor for new believers, those who have not come into the fullness of faith. It is also the responsibility of the Church (as well as individual believers) to test so-called “prophesies” as to whether they are from God, so as to protect believers. In cases like Fatima, the Catholic church abandoned that duty. Really, all of this is pretty basic stuff, that shouldn’t be a matter of dispute for believers, since it is all written pretty plainly in the Word of God.
Here are a few relevant verses:
Matthew 24:23-24:
” 23If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!—do not believe it.
24For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).”
Galatians 1:8-9:
“8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
Matthew 7:15-17:
“15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.”
2 Corinthians 11:13-15:
“13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. “
Ping to keep an eye on this thread.
It was destroyed in AD 70.
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