Hebrew DNA found in South America? [OPEN]

Mormon Times ^ | Monday, May. 12, 2008 | By Michael De Groote

[Elsie]

Is this not being hypocritical you renouce being LDS and this is a close thread!

Yup: she RENOUNCED MORMONism and will tell ANYONE what is WRONG with it!

You, Resty, have RENOUNCED Presbyterianism and will tell NO one what you found wrong with it.

(Or even what Joseph Smith claimed to have LEARNED was UNTRUE about it.)

[Elsie]

It isn’t very Christian of you.

No problem: she's MORMON.

[Elsie]

Then the thread is open to those with Jewish ancestors?

Then, using the premise put forward in the article, I can post for NO Hebrew DNA has been found in MY genes!

Remember...

'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.'

[Elsie]

They learn and evolve...

[restornu]

Caucus threads are closed to any poster who is not a member of the caucus.
BOO HOO!

Looks like you got slapped into an OPEN category...

AGAIN!

****

Thank you It was me who Open the thread!

To: All

The thread has been changed to “open” at the poster’s request.

44 posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 12:55:41 AM by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

[Elsie]

So I am eager to hear your Jewish blood line so share with us?

Why should they?

You will not 'share' the UNTRUTHs of PRESBYTERINAism - but then - neither did Joseph Smith.

[Elsie]

This is a Hebrew/LDS Caucus in the Religion Forum. If you are neither Jewish nor LDS, then do not post here.

The thread has been changed to “open” at the poster’s request.

I got here at just the right time! ;^)

[Elsie]

Delightful!

[Elsie]

Looks like you got slapped into an OPEN category...

Looks like I pre-judged the results.

Thanks for asking the RM to fix the thread so I can post here.

---

[Elsie]

Thank you It was me who Open the thread!

Yup; I found that out.

[restornu]

Looks like you got slapped into an OPEN category...
Looks like I pre-judged the results.

Thanks for asking the RM to fix the thread so I can post here.

***

Thank you for your gracious acknowledgment

[ChicagoHebrew]

I have better things to do than argue with you. I gave you information, all of which can be found quite easily on the web. If you have any interest in looking for it, you know have enough information to google it and find it. If you prefer to keep believing in fairy tales, without ever searching for the truth, that’s your choice also.

[colorcountry]

It’s time to update my tagline, even though I love my present one.

[DelphiUser]

You will not 'share' the UNTRUTHs of PRESBYTERINAism - but then - neither did Joseph Smith.

You keep saying this, I have no idea what Restornu found wrong with being a Presbyterian, or for that matter that anything was wrong, she may have just found more in the LDS church.

As for Joseph smith, it's pretty clear (except for those who don't want to see) that Joseph had a problem with the trinity after being called as a prophet and seeing Jesus stand on the right hand of God (just like Stephen). Once Joseph had seen with his own eyes the falseness of Trinitarian belief, it's not surprising that he didn't join.

[restornu]

You keep saying this, I have no idea what Restornu found wrong with being a Presbyterian, or for that matter that anything was wrong, she may have just found more in the LDS church

He does not know either but it seems to makes good fodder for Elsie!

[DelphiUser]

I have better things to do than argue with you.

Then why did you come here and post calling others idiots because of what they believe, did you expect no opposition to your pronouncement of intellectual judgment? (Silly rabbit religion threads are for arguing!)

I gave you information, all of which can be found quite easily on the web.

To me this sounds like:

"I'm sure you can find evidence to support what I said (even though I can't be bothered to) don't you care about supporting my argument more than I do?"

If you have any interest in looking for it, you know have enough information to google it and find it.

Let me make this clear, I have no interest in trying to support your argument which I disagree with, instead, I spend time on things I do believe in. Feel free to try to help me with my research since that seems to be what you think people should do.

If you prefer to keep believing in fairy tales, without ever searching for the truth, that’s your choice also.

Let's see, I post video of several geneticists discussing the issue, and even post my personal logical reasoning on the topic, complete with links and I'm the one believing in fairy tails? Hey whatever gets you through the day FRiend.

For those who don't know what was linked earlier, I'll include the text of my page that was linked here:

Does DNA from Indians prove anything about the Book of Mormon?
Lets look at some claims from DNA "Experts" then we'll talk about why they got what they Got when they did their research: From Take a Stand ministries

The research shows that 96.5% of them show an Asian origin

From When DNA Evidence is Ignored: Systematic Bias Against Non-Asian Origins of Ancient Americans When DNA evidence is ignored

It is wrong to say that there has been no DNA evidence pointing to non-Asian (e.g., European or Middle East) origins of ancient Native Americans. But some of the possible evidence has routinely been discarded and ignored.

There are also lots of people claiming a the Halpotypes from central Siberia prove the Indians came from there, why so many "Sources" for Indian DNA?

The answer is simple, in a genetically promiscuous group (People who will reproduce with people outside their group) you can find anything you are looking for if you look long enough. A genetically conservative group (People that reproduces exclusively with people of their group) the Jews are a really great example of this, they inter marry so rarely with outsiders that they actually have some genetic diseases that are unique to "their group" (Tay-Sachs disease). When speaking of A genetically Promiscuous group, Americans come to mind, we tend to be open minded genetically speaking, we marry anybody, and everybody into our "melting pot", and historically this is what the American Indians did too.

How does this genetic promiscuity affect DNA studies?

DNA geological studies require three things

1. A Pure genetic sample starting from a common ancestor group.
2. A genetically conservative group when living apart.
3. A genetically conservative group also from the same ancestor group for comparison.

Most genetic researches concerning the Book of Mormon assume the Book of Mormon says the ancestors of the American Indians meet these criteria, lets actually examine what the Book of Mormon says instead of "assuming".

Supposition # 1, A Pure genetic sample starting from a common ancestor group:

• Lehi is a descendant of Joseph (Lets ignore to the end the fact that Joseph and Judah were brothers who's mothers while sisters may well have been from different wives (polygamy in the Bible being so common as to be unremarkable and the desire to have the first born married "first" would only matter for inheritance if the daughters were from different mothers)
• Zoram a slave of indeterminate genetic ancestry joined the group as it fled Jerusalem.
• Ishmael, joins the party by invitation, and we are not told his lineage (probably Jewish, but we can't be sure).
• Zoram and Ishmael's genetic code will be passed on as they now have wives and are procreating.

Supposition #2 A genetically conservative group When living apart:

• And they discovered a people, who were called the people of Zarahemla
• Mulekites who came over to the Americas separately married in with the Lamanites
• There were Descendants of Ishmael
• Mormon makes a point of saying he is "a pure descendant of Lehi" as if this was a rare thing.
  
  

Supposition #3 A genetically conservative group also from the same ancestor group for comparison:

• The Jews are a well known genetically conservative group.
• Central Siberia being remote is somewhat genetically conservative, but not as genetically conservative as Jewish DNA.
• Asia is also more genetically conservative, but again not as conservative as Jewish DNA.

So, out of three things that are needed to get a match we have one. What should we find when doing this comparison?

We should get different answers with differing samples, and Gee, that's what we get.

Result? You cannot prove the Book of Mormon True or False with DNA. why? The American Indians were not a genetically conservative group, they would marry in vi kings and Spanish and Europeans, if they had been genetically conservative, and we could see that their DNA came from say Africa, that would be a blow to the Book of Mormon's credibility, but this is exactly what you would expect from a group that started as a genetically impure sample and diluted itself as it went.

On the other hand, if you could find a group of Indians who had halpotypes that did descend from the Middle east, that would be a significant support for the Book of Mormon.

Keith Crandall, a population geneticist who specializes in these kinds of research was asked to confirm the work done by many who were "outside their specialty", after doing the research, he joined the LDS church, and now teaches Genetics at BYU.

These videos are from fairLDS.org, and is a fair representation of what Mormons think about DNA and the Book of Mormon.
part 1 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
part 2 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
Part 3 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA

To sum up, DNA does not and cannot disprove the Book of Mormon, because the necessary circumstances are not there to support a negative conclusion, however, there is evidence to support the Book of Mormon if you want to look for it.

[DelphiUser]

He does not know either but it seems to makes good fodder for Elsie!

In theory, when you are not trying to be clear arguing for obfuscation can be a productive way to keep others from being clear too.

I am left to wonder just what your reasons for leaving a former church and joining the LDS one has to do with DNA and Indians. Maybe I'm slow, but I don't see a connection, do you?

[Godzilla]

HI DUh, still posting that drivel I see. But then that is to be expected from a TBM. Which of at least 4 mormon lands theories are you trying to support. Human DNA studies are also supported by intestinal bacterial studies as well as dog DNA and archaeology. Still waiting to see a real bom artifact put forth here DUh. It boils down to Occams razor, when multiple lines of hard, physical evidence effectively show that no jewish ancestors peopled the Americas you want to hold to a myth. A myth that could not have even happened given the setting of the very first verse of 1 Nephi.

[restornu]

Well I left the Presbyterian church when I was living with the Minister and family after witnessing how he treated his flock.

One Sun after church the minister had on his tennis whites and was ready to go the Detroit Yacht club and a church member called to be consoled, her husband just died , he told her he was sorry he had a meeting he had to attend!

There is more I could never get answers to my questions that the Lord Jesus Christ talked about in the Bible but the clergy would just dismiss it as though that made it alright.

Well they are not the Lord and I took the Lord at his word.

So I search for 18 years did not expect my question to be answered by the LDS but that is where I found truth witness by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Elsie]

Thank you for your gracious acknowledgment

You are Welcome.