The Second Coming Happened Already

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>The author Nehemia Gordon is a Karaite Jew unencumbered by Rabbinism

Well, that may be, but whoever translated Matthew into Hebrew from the Greek original missed it on this one.

You presume that to be so.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[topcat54]

All of us have breasts...all of us do not have paps. nipple. Men and women have them. Just check any anatomy textbook. The fact that the Greek word is masculine should disabuse you of any particular gender/sexuality connotation.

Regarding stethos, it is found in places like John 13:25, “He then lying on Jesus' breast ( stethos) saith unto him, Lord, who is it?”

Perhaps you can tells us then, did Jesus have “breasts” like the “seven angels” in Rev. 15 or “breasts” like women?

One other comment about mastos, in the LXX translation of Song of Solomon 1:2, the translators used mastos in the context that is speaking of a male “beloved”; filhsatw me apo filhmatwn stomatoV autou oti agaqoi mastoi sou uper oinon.

I would question if full understanding of that verse could be achieved if one didn't accept the word for what it is.

But your “what it is” is based on a misunderstanding of 17th century English, IMO.

[topcat54]

You presume that to be so.

Until conclusive evidence to the contrary is unearthed, yes.

[Ping-Pong]

But your “what it is” is based on a misunderstanding of 17th century English, IMO.

Topcat, what you fail to accept is the word wasn't chosen in error. It was purposely placed there. Instead of trying to erase it...wouldn't it be better to find out why God used it?

Why would breast be used in John 13:25 and not in Revelation? Because they were idiots? Because they didn't know what the word meant? Because they didn't understand the difference in masculine and feminine? Our Father is teaching a lesson. It is for us to understand.

[aruanan]

And the seven angels came out of the Temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

At the time this was translated, "breasts" didn't exclusively mean "titties" or "hooters" or "knockers" and "girdle" wasn't an article of women's clothing. There was a time when "car" and "van" weren't referring to automobiles.

[OPREV]

>>>Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky; and all the peoples of the land will weep as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I must have missed the newspaper accounts of this event.

I didn't know they had dailies back then. Maybe CNN caught it.

The correct rendering is "tribes of the land will wail." The land was Israel, the tribes were the tribes of Israel. Why would anyone weep who hadn't seen Jesus face to face and didn't know who he was? Only those in Israel saw Jesus. He was sent only to them (Mat 15:24). They would weep because then they would know that they actually did Kill their messiah, prince, and prophesied king and they would recognize his face. No one else in the world would know who he was by physical feature. 0_o

[OPREV]

>>>Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky; and all the peoples of the land will weep as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I must have missed the newspaper accounts of this event.

If we had it on video, people wouldn't believe it. Even Josephus said there was a sword in the sky and a comet over Jerusalem for a year. He said there were chariots in the sky too. Tacitus said the same thing, and much more regarding miracles and portents. If it's unbelievable, then, it was obviously made up. At least if it doesn't fit people's definition of what they think happened.

[OPREV]

Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice.

There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.

Tacitus, The Histories

http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/histories.5.v.html

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>You presume that to be so.

Until conclusive evidence to the contrary is unearthed, yes.

Good Luck in your search for Truth.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[Ping-Pong]

There is no need to be so explicit.

I see a decided difference in what is written, a deeper lesson...you don’t, so we have to agree to disagree.

[topcat54]

Good Luck in your search for Truth.

God never disappoints. I cannot say the same for men.

[Scythian]

Well, I will say one thing, it certainly does seem like Satan is running the show right now doesn’t it ... but then he was cast down of old and always has been causing trouble down here.

[topcat54]

Topcat, what you fail to accept is the word wasn't chosen in error.

If you are speaking of the original Greek word, absolutely true. If you are speaking of the 17th century English translation of that Greek word, your comment is a non sequitur. The KJV is not an infallible translation of the original languages. And certainly your interpretation of the English word in that 17th century translation is not infallible.

It is impossible to get into the head of a translator who lived 400 years ago to decide what they were thinking. Words change and times change. Trying to make a theological argument based entirely on fallible translations is a tricky and impossible task. Like the Force, it may work with the weak-minded, but eventually you come up against folks not so gullible.

[topcat54]

it certainly does seem like Satan is running the show right now doesn’t it

Only to a Satanist.

[Ping-Pong]

Jeff, sorry to have taken your thread off topic for a time.

What of....

11 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If, as you say, Christ has already appeared at His 2nd Advent....what of the above Scripture?

[Ping-Pong]

Ha...what a bunch of gobbledy-goop. You can’t get into the head of the translator so we can’t know why He translated the word one way in one chapter and another way in another chapter. Could it be...because they had two different meanings? Two different thoughts were being expressed? That is the obvious answer and yet you go to unbelievable lengths to skirt around it.

I repeat what I said to the other poster. We will have to agree to disagree because this is getting silly and...we are off topic.

[aruanan]

The KJV is not an infallible translation of the original languages. And certainly your interpretation of the English word in that 17th century translation is not infallible.

And the KJV was translated from a Greek New Testament text that, at the date of its printing, was considered to be a defective instrument, having been hastily assembled from late manuscripts (some parts even back-translated from Latin into Greek along with margin notes/interpolations) in order to beat someone else into publication.

[Scythian]

? The bible states that Satan is the prince of this world? I am no satanist, you’re comment shows a certain lack of biblical knowledge.

[OPREV]

Jeff, sorry to have taken your thread off topic for a time. What of.... 11 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. If, as you say, Christ has already appeared at His 2nd Advent....what of the above Scripture?

:D No prob. dude. :D

I don't know who he was. An emperor? That sat in the temple? Or, made himself out to be God (a lot of them did that)

Here's from 1st John (I used the GNB translation for ease of reading)

1Jn 2:17 The world and everything in it that people desire is passing away; but those who do the will of God live forever.

1Jn 2:18 My children, the end is near! You were told that the Enemy of Christ would come; and now many enemies of Christ have already appeared, and so we know that the end is near.

1Jn 2:19 These people really did not belong to our fellowship, and that is why they left us; if they had belonged to our fellowship, they would have stayed with us. But they left so that it might be clear that none of them really belonged to us.

2:19 sounds like he was a describing a falling away. 2:18 sounds like he was saying it was very close. Did the apostles know who the man was first? Did they write letters who it was? Or was that too risky? Maybe they knew and didn't write it. I have no idea.

3Jn 1:13-14 I had many things to write unto thee, but I am unwilling to write them to thee with ink and pen: but I hope shortly to see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be unto thee. The friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name.

I dunno. :D

[Godzilla]

Remarkable - you preach that the rapture happened in AD 70, yet you cite the Apostle John’s writings of 80-90 AD. So you believe John missed the rapture? Remarkable that such an event would not be noticed by the ANF.