Posted on 04/08/2009 6:35:57 PM PDT by restornu
Criticisms Journal of Discourses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Journal of Discourses
A favorite source of material frequently cited by anti-Mormons is the Journal of Discourses. This twenty-six-volume collection of writings of early General Authorities was first published in England between 1853 and 1886 for the intent of providing an income for George D. Watt, the stenographer and publisher for the collection. (Watt, 55.)
The First Presidency approved the publication and the collected volumes filled the need of getting published conference reports into the hands of members in England. Gerald Jones notes however,
In considering the reliability of the Journal of Discourses, we should remember certain circumstances.
Though the First Presidency endorsed the publication of the Journal, there was no endorsement as to the accuracy or reliability of the contents. There were occasions when the accuracy was questionable. The accounts were not always cleared by the speakers because of problems of time and distance.
This was especially true during the persecution of the 1880s, which finally forced the cessation of the publication.
...Doctrinally, members of the Church were growing and learning. Most adults were converts who had to unlearn and relearn many doctrines. They were learning things that our children learn in Primary and Sunday School. Remarks were frequently impromptu. Close, friendly audiences frequently invited formal discussion of varied topics. There was occasional speculation about doctrines that have since been determined unimportant or even misleading. (Jones, 200-01.)
The Journal of Discourses contains many interesting and insightful teachings by early church leaders and well as intriguing and speculative assumptions and hypothesis of these same leaders.
The Journal of Discourses is not, and never has, carried the same weight as scripture (for a definition of scripture-- or “official” scripture-- see my forthcoming article “Journal of Discourses/As Good as Scripture”).
It is also important to note that Latter-day Saints do not believe that their leaders (including the Prophet) is infallible.
Prophets are entitled to their own opinions, prejudices, and errors, just like everybody else (this topic will be discussed in greater detail in my forthcoming “Doctrinal/Prophets Fallible”).
Anti-Mormon arguments which rely on quotations from the Journal of Discourses are often straw-man arguments, attempting to claim Mormon doctrine from speculative remarks by early leaders. As Stephen Robinson has expressed,
...time and time again the Latter-day Saints are denied ...[the] basic privilege of defining and interpreting their own doctrines.
Quite frequently a Latter-day Saint attempting to explain the tenets of his or her faith to non-Mormons will be interrupted by some self-styled expert who says, “No, that’s not what you believe; this is what you believe!”
There generally follows a recital of some hocus-pocus that is certainly not taught by the LDS Church. Ponder the absurdity of it-- “You don’t know what you believe, but I know what you believe; I know your thoughts better than you do!”
...When non-Mormons attempt to impose doctrines on the Latter-day Saints or interpret them for us, the resulting fictions generally fall into one of three categories: outright fabrications, distortions of genuine LDS doctrines into unrecognizable forms, or the representation of anomalies within LDS tradition as mainline or official LDS teaching. (Robinson, 1991, 9-10.)
Michael R. Ash
A favorite source of material frequently cited by anti-Mormons is the Journal of Discourses.
___________________________________
How can this qualify as Ecumenical ?
It includes opinions about non-members of the group..
While excluding them and denying them an opportunity to defend themselves and/or refute the antagonism in the article.
This one is labeled "ecumenical" - the guideline is "no antagonism."
Thank you...
Ahhhh. I see. This is one of those frequent conversations one hears on the bus or walking through Walmart where one overhears antis quoting the Journal of Discourses to verbally assault LDSers who are innocently standing around mindg their own business.
A favorite source of material frequently cited by anti-Mormons is the Journal of DiscoursesThe article itself starts with antagonism. Hos is it even remotely 'ecumenical' when it directly and immediately starts out like that?
On “ecumenical” threads in the Religion Forum, more leeway is granted to the article than to the reply posts.
Then why are Mormons admonished to "Follow the Prophet"? Why not just follow "everybody else"?
It is also important to note that Latter-day Saints do not believe that their leaders (including the Prophet) is infallible.
Prophets are entitled to their own opinions, prejudices, and errors, just like everybody else (this topic will be discussed in greater detail in my forthcoming “Doctrinal/Prophets Fallible”).
To me this is a self impose concept people get to thinking that in order to be a prophet etc one has to be perfect and that is not always the case even with Abraham who said his wife was his sister I am sure there are other examples.
A prophet is only a prophet when acting as a prophet mean when under the influence of the Spirit of the Lord.
Doesn’t a true prophet have to be infallible - unlike Joseph Smith?
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets.shtml#infallible
So when Brighaqm Young and Joseph Smith and all the prophets were preaching that Blacks were cursed by the Mark of Cain and that one drop of Negro blood would forever disqualify them from the priesthood and that Adam is the Heavenly Father, what spirit were they under the influence of?
Joseph Smith never preach that!
Good nite!
EVEN when the first line of the article is...
"A favorite source of material frequently cited by anti-Mormons is the Journal of Discourses.:" ?
That is not ecumenical, that is antagonistic.
Shouldn’t this be an open discussion based on the very first line of the articule?
Ahhh. Yea, they did and you have been shown the writings before on FR.
Ok, then what spirit was Brigham Young under the influence of when he uttered those blasphemies while preaching to the LDS faithful?
Ok, then what spirit was Brigham Young under the influence of when he uttered those blasphemies while preaching to the LDS faithful?
We can take counsel from one of the Apostles in regards to all that was said before 1978. That includes the things that are still being taught today, that stem from pre 1978 statements. Search out your own replies, and see if they have root therein.
Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote in Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, Part II - The mission of the Holy Ghost, Chapter 9--Revelation on the Priesthood 1989.
We Follow Living Prophets
There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality.
I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?"
All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
We get our truth and light line upon line and precept upon precept (2 Ne. 28:30; Isa. 28:9-10; D&C 98:11-12; 128:21).
We have now added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter anymore.
I love this awesome statement of acknowledgement and humility by the apostle.
Adding to today's words from President Hinckley stating "we don't know why." I'd also like to point out the Jesus Christ was the only perfect person to live on the earth. That makes all of the rest of us imperfect.
So which shortcomings are ok for Church leaders, or friends, or family to have?
It is not my place or yours to choose.
But it is our place to show our Father, that we can be like Christ in dealing with our brothers and sisters here on earth. (He who is w/o sin, let him cast ... comes to mind)
What spirit was Brigham Young under the influence of when he uttered those blasphemies while preaching to the LDS faithful?
Would you agree that the spirit he was under the influence of was an evil spirit? A Satanic influence?
How else could you explain how a so-called prophet of God could utter such blasphemies from the pulpit?
What does your tag line mean? Just curious.
RM, how can this antagonistic material be considered ecumenic?
A favorite source of material frequently cited by anti-Mormons is the Journal of Discourses. This twenty-six-volume collection of writings of early General Authorities was first published in England between 1853 and 1886 for the intent of providing an income for George D. Watt, the stenographer and publisher for the collection. (Watt, 55.) Quite frequently a Latter-day Saint attempting to explain the tenets of his or her faith to non-Mormons will be interrupted by some self-styled expert who says, “No, that’s not what you believe; this is what you believe!”
There generally follows a recital of some hocus-pocus that is certainly not taught by the LDS Church. Ponder the absurdity of it-- “You don’t know what you believe, but I know what you believe; I know your thoughts better than you do!”
...When non-Mormons attempt to impose doctrines on the Latter-day Saints or interpret them for us, the resulting fictions generally fall into one of three categories: outright fabrications, distortions of genuine LDS doctrines into unrecognizable forms, or the representation of anomalies within LDS tradition as mainline or official LDS teaching. (Robinson, 1991, 9-10.)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.