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To: Diamond; DouglasKC; All
[Corinthians 3:7-11] 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly "behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance"; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious (Moses' Countenance), much more that which remaineth is glorious.

What.....exactly was done away with? "The glory of the countenance of Moses!"

How......exactly was it done away with? "Moses put a veil over his face!"

Let's go further: [12-14] KJV Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. "That which is abolished" is not a good translation. 2673. katargeo (kat-arg-eh'-o) (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively Useless is a better translation and read it as follows:

Young's Literal Translation: [7-14] and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face -- which was being made useless, 8 how shall the ministration of the Spirit not be more in glory? 9 for if the ministration of the condemnation is glory, much more doth the ministration of the righteousness abound in glory; 10 for also even that which hath been glorious, hath not been glorious -- in this respect, because of the superior glory; 11 for if that which is being made useless is through glory, much more that which is remaining is in glory. 12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech, 13 and are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless, 14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn -- which in Christ is being made useless.

What is being made useless? The same veil covering the glory of the face of Moses!" Why was it useless to begin with? Because the Israelites had hardened (blinded) minds!"

These passages do not say that the Ten Commandments were Abolished, done away with, made useless or any other such "Tom Foolery" that one could construe from poor translations.

[I Corinthians 7:19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

[I Corinthians 14:37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

We just gotta start using our heads here folks. Why would the Apostle stipulate in the first letter that we must heed the commandments...... and then tell us in the second letter that they were done away with?

Here's the answer: [II Peter 3:15-16] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

1,132 posted on 06/01/2009 9:12:32 PM PDT by Diego1618 (Put "Ron" on the rock!)
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To: Diego1618
[Corinthians 3:7-11] 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly "behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance"; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious (Moses' Countenance), much more that which remaineth is glorious.

What.....exactly was done away with? "The glory of the countenance of Moses!"

How......exactly was it done away with? "Moses put a veil over his face!"

I highlight in blue what you ignore; namely, that the Ten Commandments are called a "ministration of death", and, that it was glorious, not just the face of Moses. The ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious. You should notice that it is not just the glory that was done away, but that which was glorious, being surpassed by the greater glory of the New Covenant. "For if that which is done away (2673) was glorious..." This is the Old Covenant, the Ten Commandments, written and engraved on stones, the "tablets of the covenant". Verse 11: "And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!"

It is absurd to suppose that Paul's intention in this whole passage was not to contrast the the Ten Commandments, the "ministration of death", that which was written and engraved on stones with the Gospel, but merely to contrast Moses' literal face with the gospel, as if the type were the significant thing rather than the thing typified. What was it, Diego1618, that was written and engraved on those stones? Will you answer that? It seems rather obvious that the fading glory of Moses' countenance typified the fading glory of the Old Covenant (Tables of the Covenant, remember?) which, despite all its excellence, had no glory that could be compared with that of the Gospel which is permanent.

Let's go further: [12-14] KJV Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. "That which is abolished" is not a good translation. 2673. katargeo (kat-arg-eh'-o) (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively Useless is a better translation and read it as follows:

Young's Literal Translation: [7-14] and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face -- which was being made useless, 8 how shall the ministration of the Spirit not be more in glory? 9 for if the ministration of the condemnation is glory, much more doth the ministration of the righteousness abound in glory; 10 for also even that which hath been glorious, hath not been glorious -- in this respect, because of the superior glory; 11 for if that which is being made useless is through glory, much more that which is remaining is in glory. 12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech, 13 and are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless, 14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn -- which in Christ is being made useless.

What is being made useless? The same veil covering the glory of the face of Moses!" Why was it useless to begin with? Because the Israelites had hardened (blinded) minds!"

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

 Strong's Number:  2673 katargeÑw
Original Word Word Origin
  katargeÑw   from (2596) and (691)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
  Katargeo   kat-arg-eh'-o
Parts of Speech TDNT
  Verb   1:452,76
 Definition
 
  1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
    1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
    2. to deprive of force, influence, power
  2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
    1. to cease, to pass away, be done away
    2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
    3. to terminate all intercourse with one
 Translated Words
  KJV (27) - abolish, 3; cease, 1; cumber, 1; deliver, 1; destroy, 5; do away, 3; fall, 1; loose, 1; misc, 11;

NAS (27) - abolished, 4; abolishing, 1; bring to an end, 1; did away, 1; do away, 1; done away, 4; fades away, 1; fading, 1; fading away, 1; nullified, 1; nullify, 4; passing away, 1; released, 2; removed, 1; render powerless, 1; severed, 1; use, 1;

The same word that you agree applies to what you call the ordinances of the Levitical Priesthood, the special washings and the animal sacrifices, is applied four times here in 2 Cor 3:7,11,13,14, as you have underlined, but the same word is also used twice in Romans 7:2,6 and specifically applied there to the Ten Commandment law, "you shall not covet" It is the same word that is used in Ephesians 2:15; "...by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances."

Which is exactly what Paul is talking about in II Corinthians 3:7-14 with his reference to the Ten Commandments, the "ministration of death", that which was written and engraved on stones, and not merely the "uselessness" of the veil covering the glory of the face of Moses as you would have us suppose.

Cordially,

1,136 posted on 06/03/2009 11:01:39 AM PDT by Diamond
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