HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?

http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php ^ | 2003 | By Jeremy K. Moritz

[Sherman Logan]

The spirit, as I understand it, is the life force of the person, which came from God and returns to him at death. It is not the individual personality or memories.

Possibly this doesn’t differ that much from your definition.

I wouldn’t say the soul or individual sleeps at death, rather that it goes out of existence. It can, of course, be brought back by God, if he so chooses.

[ScubieNuc]

How do you explain the parable of Lazarus in Abraham’s arms while the rich man suffers in hell from Luke 16?

Good question. Here's my answer:

The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16: 19-31).

It is the fifth parable in a series of parables starting in Luke 15. These parables are in response to the Pharisees and scribes talking about how Jesus receives sinners and tax collectors.

The first parable is about the lost sheep and how a shepherd will leave the safe 99 to find the one lost sheep. The second parable is about the woman and the ten pieces of silver, and how she cleans house to find the one missing piece. The third parable is about the prodigal son who once was lost but now is found. The fourth parable is about the rich man and his steward who settles his debts for less then what was owed. The fifth parable is about the rich man and Lazarus.

A few interesting things to note:

When Jesus spoke to the groups he spoke ONLY in parables.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

The parables all deal with money on some level.

The parables are about the value of the “least of these” over the money value.

Before starting the parable of Lazarus, Jesus states that the “Law and Prophets UNTIL John”.

The Pharisees are not happy with Jesus’s teachings.

After the Lazarus story, you read in Luke 17 about how Jesus heals 10 lepers but only ONE comes back and thanks Jesus. That one was a Samaritan, not a Jew.

The main reason people say that this isn’t a parable is because Jesus uses a name, so let’s look at that name. Lazarus is the Greek word for the Hebrew name Eliezer. What is interesting about that name is Abraham was going to give his inheritance to Eliezer of Damascus (Gen. 15:2-4), but God provided Abraham with his own lineage.

This raises the question as to why Jesus didn’t name the rich man. He does describe the rich man though, so we can analyze what those things tells us. The rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen (cambric). Purple was known as a royal color worn by kings and royalty. Cambric or fine linen was clothing worn by priests (Ex. 28:5, 25:4) and it decorated the Tabernacle (Ex. 26:1). Judah was given the position of ruler of the Jews (Gen. 49:10). Judah also had five brothers from his Leah (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun). Because Judah was the leader of the nation of Israel, Israelites were known as followers of Judah or what we now call Jews.

From this breakdown, we can see that the rich man symbolizes the nation of Israel, including their priests and kings. Lazarus symbolizes those outside of Abraham’s inheritance or Gentiles. This makes sense when you consider who Jesus was talking with and who was upset by it in Luke 15. It also fits in with the other parables dealing with who was lost and what real value is.

One other aspect to look at is, does this story make sense if it reveals an actual event?

Is being wealthy and well dressed a sin deserving Hell?
Is being thrown into the street, being poor, and begging a virtue worthy of Heaven?
If Lazarus ascended into heaven, then doesn’t that contradict Jesus saying that no man has ascended in to heaven in John 3:13?
How many people could actually fit in Abraham’s bosom?
Is the torments the rich man is feeling, physical? If so, how does he see through the flames? People on fire close their eyes. How does the rich man talk coherently about saving his brothers or being tormented, or wanting water from Lazarus’s finger tip? If you are burning up, what good is moisture on the tip of a finger? Why not cry to have your skin or eyes drenched?
Why does the rich man go to hell without a day in court?
How does the rich man recognize Abraham? If the rich man recognizes Abraham how would he have “heard” Moses (who lived hundreds of years after Abraham)?

When you look at the totality of actual events would be like and the context of the story, it becomes clear that it is a parable telling of value and the fallen state of Abraham’s descendants.

[MEGoody]

Well, for starters, it IS a parable.

Agreed. But Jesus would not communicate something to those He was teaching that was a complete untruth. In other words, He would not have talked about the rich man being in torment unless such a thing could actually occur. If the "bad guys" are annihilated at death, the parable wouldn't have made a bit of sense.

[Hazwaste]

Right. Sheol (Hades) was populated by the righteous (their faith reckoned to them as righteousness) and unrighteous dead prior to Christ’s sacrifice. The righteous in the “good” neighborhood of Hades (Abraham’s bosom) while the unrighteous were (and remain) in the “bad” part, in torment.

Jesus came and brought the righteous souls of Hades out and up to Heaven after His atoning sacrifice. The unrighteous remain in Hades until the time of final judgment (Revelations).

Hell (Lake of Fire) is not the same as Hades. Hell will remain unoccupied until the final judgment.

[RegulatorCountry]

As far as I am able to understand, the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ changed not just the means of obtaining forgiveness for sin in this word, it changed the nature of spiritual afterlife as well, and Sheol is not accepting any new guests anymore, for lack of a better way of putting it. Those bound in the deepest depths of Sheol are still there, though, and will be until they are unleashed upon the world for a time, and then thrown into the lake of fire for eternal torment. Sheol strikes me as being the origin of the Catholic concept of purgatory.

[marron]

Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?

I don't care for either option.

I'm choosing Door Number Three.

[fightinJAG]

Here’s how it’s been explained to me:

Both Heaven and Hell are temporary. They are places where people go if they die before Jesus has returned to earth.

Those who were abiding in Jesus at the time of their first death will wait in Heaven.

When Jesus comes back, they return to earth to be part of Christ’s “kingdom of heaven on earth.” (See, e.g., the Lord’s prayer-—”your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.) They will be part of Christ’s global administration (”the government will be upon his shoulders”). This is the parable of the “talents” and the servants who, having been faithful and turning a profit, are given greater responsibilities when the Master comes back (”the charge of many cities”).

Those who were not abiding in Jesus at the time of their first death will wait in Hell, which is what the rich man was doing in the parable of Lazarus in Abraham’s arms. At the End of the Age, they, along with the people who lived on the earth during Jesus’ millennial reign, will be judged. (Those who were abiding with Jesus at the time of their first death were already judged-—they were *finally* judged-—meaning: they won’t be judged again-—to be righteous by the blood of Christ and, therefore, went to wait in Heaven.)

Since, at the End of the Age (the history of the world as we know it), the sheep will be separated from the goats, it seems that Hell was not based on *final* judgment. It was based on judgment at the first death-—that is, that the person was not abiding in Jesus at that time. So someone in Hell may take the opportunity to repent and bow to Jesus.

At the final judgment, the judged will either be brought into the Kingdom (the city outside of which is weeping and gnashing of teeth) or thrown into the pit and annihilated.

And that’s where Volume I stops. Sequel not yet published.

[parthian shot]

Eternal torment....

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[RobRoy]

>>True, but even in a parable a mustard seed is still a mustard seed and a fatted calf is still a fatted calf.<<
But mustard seeds and calfs are things with which we are all familiar. In this case he was discussing with them based on their understanding of something only written of, in a literal “pre-christian” world.

So what was the actual intent of the parable? What was the message?

I propose that the hypothetical (and it was, as I see it) was to set up for the final point: 31”He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “

The whole purpose of the parable was to set up his answer for not offering “proof” to unbelievers. And that whole concept is discussed quite a bit in the NT.

[BuckeyeTexan]

Thanks for posting. This is something to study and consider with much prayer. I believe the SDA church teaches this too.

[RobRoy]

It is also a “pre-christianity” viewpont.

[pgkdan]

That’s consistent. Thanks for answering...this is something that has been on my mind alot lately and I was sincere in posing the question.

[pgkdan]

Hell was not based on *final* judgment. It was based on judgment at the first death-—that is, that the person was not abiding in Jesus at that time. So someone in Hell may take the opportunity to repent and bow to Jesus.

Your description of Hell sounds a lot like a Catholics description of purgatory. Thanks for a great and thoughtful answer.

[T Minus Four]

Better get over here and set these people straight

[fightinJAG]

May I also suggest this for perusal?

Salvation B.C. A.D.

[Scythian]

I believe Hell is separation from the presence of God forever and ever and ever with no hope of restoration, you are alive, awake, and surrounded by evil, nothing could be worse than that.

[nonsporting]

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11). I've heard the well-known conditionalist author Dr. Edward Fudge's explanation of this verse ... (

Wherein Fudge says contradictorally it's not necessarily forever and ever. I think Fudge is fudging. "Forever and ever" is forever and ever. Rev 20:10 says that Satan and all who follow him will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever.

[RobRoy]

Time is a current flowing in an ocean called Eternity - Robroy.

So, with that “belief”, what would “forever and ever” really mean?

[pgkdan]

You’ve obviously given this alot of thought. I’m impressed...maybe not thorougly convinced but certainly impressed.

[RobRoy]

Forgot to include this: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&t=KJV#conc/11