Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Tiller’s missing excommunication (LCMS)
Get Religion ^ | 6/8/2009 | Mollie Ziegler

Posted on 06/08/2009 10:08:40 AM PDT by markomalley

Last Sunday, late-term abortion doctor George Tiller was gunned down in the foyer of his Lutheran church, where he served as an usher. As anyone with even a cursory understanding of Lutheranism in America could surmise, that church was a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Of the various Lutheran church bodies in America, the ELCA is the most mainline and has the most supportive position on legalized abortion.

As soon as the terrible news about Tiller’s murder hit the wire, many bloggers and liberal pundits noted that Tiller’s active church membership was at odds with the stereotype of how abortion and religion are related. It didn’t take long for that same meme to make it to the mainstream media stories.

What none of these stories have explained is that Tiller had previously been excommunicated by a Lutheran congregation on account of his lack of repentance about and refusal to stop his occupation. That Lutheran congregation was a member of my church body, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Excommunication doesn’t happen terribly frequently in this day and age but it’s not unheard of. I don’t know any of the specifics about his past congregation or what led to the discipline and anticipated learning more about it when it was covered by the mainstream media. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened.

When the news broke, I had many people who know that I’m Lutheran ask how it was possible that his church had not disciplined him or otherwise encouraged him to stop performing abortions. I had hoped that there would be stories exploring Tiller’s religious beliefs and church membership and that the stories would explain the difference between the ELCA and the LCMS. There is obviously quite a difference between a church body that would discipline a practicing abortion doctor and one that would welcome him in membership.

While we did get some stories about his religious views, none of them seemed to have any clue about his religious history. Note, for instance, this piece from the Salt Lake Tribune that was written Religion News Service’s Lindsay Perna and Tiffany Stanley:

Dr. George Tiller’s murder last Sunday morning in the lobby of his Lutheran church counters the secular image of a late-term abortion provider, pinning him more as a churchgoing “martyr” than a godless murderer.

Shot and killed while passing out bulletins in the lobby of his Wichita, Kan., church as his wife sat in the choir, Tiller is already challenging popular perceptions of both abortion providers and the abortion-rights movement.

“It shows a dimension of the movement that a lot of people don’t know about,” said the Rev. Carlton Veazey, president of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. “This man was castigated for what he did — but he was a faithful member of the Lutheran church and that gives a different view of him and his work.”

Veazey sees the face of Tiller as more of “a martyr in the same sense that Dr. [Martin Luther] King was.”

The story goes on to quote various people about how Tiller’s church membership changes the dynamics of the abortion debate. How can they not mention that he was previously excommunicated for his abortion work? It’s such an interesting and significant part of the story! That’s just a huge hole.

Also, the pro-life people who are quoted in the story are of the Randall Terry variety. With the typical pro-choice activists and typical pro-life activists quoted, the story remains in the muck of “bumper sticker” rhetoric. It’s disappointing. (Robin Abcarian’s piece in the Los Angeles Times dealt solely with the Tiller funeral, which means its sympathetic tone is more appropriate. It also took the ‘Tiller busts stereotypes’ approach.)

After Dr. Tiller’s murder, some pundits were confused about how people who see abortion as the unjust killing of babies could also oppose the murder of someone who killed those babies. Here was one such essay written by a fellow libertarian. I saw one letter to the editor written by clergymen in my church body that addressed just that issue:

There is an old saying: Two wrongs don’t make a right. This does not appear in the Bible but it certainly reflects a scriptural idea. This concept, that two wrongs don’t make a right, is certainly true in the case of the murder of Dr. George Tiller.

Dr. Tiller was an infamous abortionist, who was one of the very few in the country who would perform late-term abortions. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod is strongly pro-life, and condemns the practice of abortion. Dr. Tiller, a former member of a Missouri Synod congregation, was excommunicated by that congregation for his abortion practice. (The congregation he was currently attending is part of another Lutheran body.) We stand by that action. Our sister congregation acted properly in disciplining Dr. Tiller. Such action is always intended to lead a person to see their sins and come to repentance. Excommunication is never intended to bring that person harm.

While we condemn Dr. Tiller’s actions as an abortionist, we just as strongly condemn the actions of the person who took his life. Murder, even of a murderer, is never acceptable. God teaches us in Romans 13 and other places, that the government is in place to enforce justice. We are never to take private vengeance. This is simply not given to private individuals. Murder in any circumstances is a grievous sin. It was our utmost desire that Dr. Tiller come to repentance, and perhaps in time he may have. We do not know. Only God sees all ends. Sadly, because of this heinous act of violence, Dr. Tiller no longer has that opportunity.

I can’t help but think that some enterprising reporter should look at how the two Lutheran church bodies handled Dr. Tiller’s occupation differently. It’s disappointing to read that RNS story in light of this rather dramatic back story.



TOPICS: Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: abortion; elca; elcachurchofmolech; fauxchristians; lcms; lutheran; mollieziegler; moralabsolutes; prolife; religiousleft; tiller; tller; veazey
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 141-159 next last
To: betty boop; SampleMan; Alamo-Girl; markomalley; muawiyah; P-Marlowe; wagglebee; xzins; metmom
While Christian society is waiting for such monsters to repent, people are dying in droves. I do so much wish that certain "Christian moral thinkers" would take this fact of reality into consideration when they explain to us what the Bible "requires."

Your view of repentance and my view are completely different. No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. Your view of God is different than mine as well. God is in control of the Pharaohs as well as His people. Not a sparrow will fall to the ground that God does not control. Just ask Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.

61 posted on 06/08/2009 4:24:59 PM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Charles Henrickson
Ventura, by his own admission (in his biography) is an atheist. He has little use for religion, or did at the time.
62 posted on 06/08/2009 6:05:12 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
As a life long Mo Lu, the article says something to me that isn't as clear to someone ‘outside’.

Tiller wouldn't have been given a bull of excommunication by surprise. He would have been confronted first in private, then in the presence of a few witnesses, then maybe in the parish council (not always the last one).

In other words, he had to have been pretty flagrant to get excommunicated.

63 posted on 06/08/2009 6:07:41 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Charles Henrickson
Wichita, Kansas, was the home of TWO serial killers who had at one time been LCMS but later became members in good standing of ELCA congegations: Dennis “BTK Killer” Rader and George “Tiller the Killer” Tiller. At least the ELCA church where BTK was a member didn’t know about his penchant for murder.

Wasn't it also in Wichita where those Catholic students were raped and murdered? Have they got a Hellmouth? Call Buffy quick!

64 posted on 06/08/2009 6:08:42 PM PDT by nina0113
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: wagglebee
The abortionist George Tiller instantly quipped, "Abortion is worth going to hell for."

I'm guessing he's re-thought that by now.

65 posted on 06/08/2009 6:11:57 PM PDT by nina0113
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
Ok, so how many millions are you willing to kill to end abortion?

John Brown started a fight that killed 600k to end slavery, never mind that the US was the only major power to do so in a war. Most other European states did so by law, with little bloodshed and didn't have the social stains and bad racial divisions like we did.

If you and others keep following this path, there will be war that makes the last Civil War look like a bad day in the Religion forum. In the last war, there were defined states of “free” and “slave”. Areas where like minded people could flee to or move to. Now, it would be house to house, block by block, much like the Finnish civil war.

Is that what you want? Is that what Christ's message is?

66 posted on 06/08/2009 6:12:32 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: nina0113; Charles Henrickson
In all seriousness, a friend of mine once said there was something “odd and evil” about Wichita.

But that was after a few beers at the local Mexican joint, so he might have been talking about the burritos.

67 posted on 06/08/2009 6:14:54 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: redgolum
Tiller wouldn't have been given a bull of excommunication by surprise. He would have been confronted first in private, then in the presence of a few witnesses, then maybe in the parish council (not always the last one).

Interesting...so excommunication is handled at the parish level in the LCMS? If so, is it binding on any parish in the synod?

68 posted on 06/08/2009 6:19:17 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: redgolum

How long was Tiller operating there? I was only half-kidding about the Hellmouth thing - not in the Buffy sense, but in the sense that when you invite evil in, it doesn’t just stay in your house.


69 posted on 06/08/2009 6:20:39 PM PDT by nina0113
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: redgolum; xzins; SeattleBruce; markomalley; Alamo-Girl; muawiyah; P-Marlowe; wagglebee; metmom; ...
Ok, so how many millions are you willing to kill to end abortion?

Where in the hell did you get that idea. All I said is that if Roeder was seeking "justice" that he (Roeder) should be executed. If he was merely attempting to stop Tiller from committing murder, then in the eyes of the law (as it has been since the dawn of time) he would be justified.

Do you believe that Abortion is murder?

Yes or no?

If yes, then why is the murder of children in a clinic any different than the murder of children on the street?

If it is different, then maybe abortion is NOT murder and Roeder is without justification or excuse.

If abortion is NOT murder, then we in the "pro-life" community should stop saying that it is. We should call it something else. Like "A bad choice".

If, in fact, there is no difference between an abortionist killing an unborn child in a clinic and a predator killing a child on the street and both acts are "murder", then Roeder should be looked upon as a hero rather than as a monster.

FWIW there have been no late term abortions in Kansas since 5/31/09.

Are you happy about that or does that make you sad?

70 posted on 06/08/2009 6:35:47 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: redgolum; lightman
Ventura, by his own admission (in his biography) is an atheist. He has little use for religion, or did at the time.

I think in his case it was a matter of him joining the church to please his wife and then being very inactive--something we pastors see not infrequently.

71 posted on 06/08/2009 6:46:40 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: redgolum; Cletus.D.Yokel; bcsco
Tiller wouldn't have been given a bull of excommunication by surprise. He would have been confronted first in private, then in the presence of a few witnesses, then maybe in the parish council (not always the last one). In other words, he had to have been pretty flagrant to get excommunicated.

You are almost certainly right. Excommunication is a last step, after previous futile admonition.

72 posted on 06/08/2009 6:50:32 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: redgolum

I would love to carry out Christ’s message about those who hurt little ones, but I don’t think we have enough millstomes.


73 posted on 06/08/2009 6:53:06 PM PDT by Palladin (George Tiller will never kill another baby.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
I had hoped that there would be stories exploring Tiller's religious beliefs and church membership and that the stories would explain the difference between the ELCA and the LCMS..

It is probably just as well. The media are lazy and agenda-driven. They could not do a neutral, descriptive story even if they wanted to. At the least, they would have dismissed the LCMS as a small "fringe" group that is "against women." They would falsely say the LCMS is "fundamentalist." That is the best you could expect. At the worst, they would do a hit piece on the LCMS. People with any discernment at all would see through it but it would be ugly. Then again, people who have never heard of confessional Lutheranism might check out the LCMS with the idea that anything the mainstream media hate must have something good about it or the media would not hate it.

74 posted on 06/08/2009 6:54:39 PM PDT by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley; redgolum; Cletus.D.Yokel; bcsco; lightman
so excommunication is handled at the parish level in the LCMS?

Yes.

If so, is it binding on any parish in the synod?

It should be. Unfortunately, some pastors can be a little lax about respecting an excommunication done by a brother pastor.

When I was pastor in Nebraska, our LCMS congregation excommunicated a man who dumped his wife to take up with another woman. What did the guy do? Joined the ELCA congregation down the road.

75 posted on 06/08/2009 6:57:40 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: redgolum
John Brown didn't "start" any war at all. In fact, his initial involvement was in an ongoing war in Kansas where it is quite arguable that pro-slavery forces started that war.

The State of South Carolina organized militia FIRED ON FORT SUMTER. That started the war.

76 posted on 06/08/2009 7:11:09 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: Charles Henrickson
When I was pastor in Nebraska, our LCMS congregation excommunicated a man who dumped his wife to take up with another woman. What did the guy do? Joined the ELCA congregation down the road.

He could have gone a step more and left his wife for a man. Then he would have been qualified to be Bishop in some liberal denominations. It's not really funny but I had to make a bad joke.

77 posted on 06/08/2009 7:23:49 PM PDT by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; redgolum; xzins; SeattleBruce; Alamo-Girl; muawiyah; wagglebee; metmom
If he was merely attempting to stop Tiller from committing murder, then in the eyes of the law (as it has been since the dawn of time) he would be justified.]

To that, I would answer as follows:

Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

From Aquinas,

Article 3. Whether it is lawful for a private individual to kill a man who has sinned?

It is not moral to deliberately use an evil means, even if some good is the ultimate intent.

Objection 1. It would seem lawful for a private individual to kill a man who has sinned. For nothing unlawful is commanded in the Divine law. Yet, on account of the sin of the molten calf, Moses commanded (Exodus 32:27): "Let every man kill his brother, and friend, and neighbor." Therefore it is lawful for private individuals to kill a sinner.

Objection 2. Further, as stated above (2, ad 3), man, on account of sin, is compared to the beasts. Now it is lawful for any private individual to kill a wild beast, especially if it be harmful. Therefore for the same reason, it is lawful for any private individual to kill a man who has sinned.

Objection 3. Further, a man, though a private individual, deserves praise for doing what is useful for the common good. Now the slaying of evildoers is useful for the common good, as stated above (Article 2). Therefore it is deserving of praise if even private individuals kill evil-doers.

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i) [Can. Quicumque percutit, caus. xxiii, qu. 8: "A man who, without exercising public authority, kills an evil-doer, shall be judged guilty of murder, and all the more, since he has dared to usurp a power which God has not given him."

I answer that, As stated above (Article 2), it is lawful to kill an evildoer in so far as it is directed to the welfare of the whole community, so that it belongs to him alone who has charge of the community's welfare. Thus it belongs to a physician to cut off a decayed limb, when he has been entrusted with the care of the health of the whole body. Now the care of the common good is entrusted to persons of rank having public authority: wherefore they alone, and not private individuals, can lawfully put evildoers to death.

Reply to Objection 1. The person by whose authority a thing is done really does the thing as Dionysius declares (Coel. Hier. iii). Hence according to Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 21), "He slays not who owes his service to one who commands him, even as a sword is merely the instrument to him that wields it." Wherefore those who, at the Lord's command,slew their neighbors and friends, would seem not to have done this themselves, but rather He by whose authority they acted thus: just as a soldier slays the foe by the authority of his sovereign, and the executioner slays the robber by the authority of the judge.

Reply to Objection 2. A beast is by nature distinct from man, wherefore in the case of a wild beast there is no need for an authority to kill it; whereas, in the case of domestic animals, such authority is required, not for their sake, but on account of the owner's loss. On the other hand a man who has sinned is not by nature distinct from good men; hence a public authority is requisite in order to condemn him to death for the common good.

Reply to Objection 3. It is lawful for any private individual to do anything for the common good, provided it harm nobody: but if it be harmful to some other, it cannot be done, except by virtue of the judgment of the person to whom it pertains to decide what is to be taken from the parts for the welfare of the whole.

Summa Theologica II-II-64-3

It is not moral to use an illicit means, even if some good is ultimately intended.

We have to fight to get the laws changed. We have to work to change the culture so that this (D&E abortion) becomes unthinkable.

Vigilante justice doesn't accomplish that. If vigilante justice is OK for Tiller, then it should be OK for a whole host of high profile people. All it does is create martyrs.

78 posted on 06/08/2009 7:30:05 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: Charles Henrickson
Tiller wouldn't have been given a bull of excommunication by surprise. He would have been confronted first in private, then in the presence of a few witnesses, then maybe in the parish council (not always the last one). In other words, he had to have been pretty flagrant to get excommunicated.

You are almost certainly right. Excommunication is a last step, after previous futile admonition

And, believe it or not, those steps (along with the Scriptural citation of Matthew 18:15-17) appear as a mandatory part of the Model Consitution for Congregations of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (C15.01) Ironically, that Scriptural citation is the only Scripture directly quoted in that document.

79 posted on 06/08/2009 7:30:30 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
If killing a bad dude creates "martyrs for the cause" then there ought to be a hundred abortionists leaping up to take Tiller's place.

So far Carhart, who does the same thing, is the only one who's said he's interested in that sort of thing.

Could be that super late term abortionists are viewed pretty much the same as the crazy guys who hammer down their testicles and penis with hammers.

80 posted on 06/08/2009 7:37:21 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 141-159 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson