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To: Mr Rogers
You mentioned Romans 3:23 -- "“since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” -- presumably as a way to show that Mary was not within sin. There are a number of ways this claim can be shown to be false.

One argument is to look at definition of the word "all" in Strong's. In Romans 3:23 and 5:12, "all have sinned," the Greek word translated into "all" is pantes, which is a derivative of "pas." In Strong's Lexicon, this can mean 1) individually; 1a) each, ever, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everythingthing; 2) collectively; 2a) some of all types. It's the latter meaning, "some of all types," that seems to apply in Romans 3:23. We see this same word "pas" in other places where it is used similarly. For example, in John 12:19, "the whole world has gone after him," does not mean the entire world went after Christ. Also see Matt. 3:5-6, "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan," which obviously doesn't mean all of Jerusalem was baptized. There are lots of other examples in the Bible but you get the idea. "All" as "pas" is probably better translated as "all sorts of."

Biblical consistency is also at issue here. If "all" really meant every person without exception, that would also include Jesus, who was human -- but that would be too much. Jesus was without sin. And so thus Mary can be without sin.
190 posted on 06/22/2009 11:47:41 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner

If that were the only verse, I might be swayed. However, the entire thrust of scripture is that ALL have sinned, and ALL need a Savior.

As Paul rebuked Peter: “14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

If Mary could be without sin, and not need a Savior, then truly Christ died for nothing! If God could skip the sentence of Adam for her, and she could do right things and be justified before God, then Jesus died for no reason.

Look at the whole passage from Romans 3:


9 What shall we conclude then? Are we [Jews] any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.


I mean no offense to you, but I fail to see how it is possible to read that passage, and respond that it means all sorts of folks have sinned, but some have not.

I’ve read that when Paul quotes the Old Testament as saying “There is no one righteous, not even one;”, he used the Greek translation, which added the words ‘not even one’ to the translation from the Hebrew. That additional emphasis would seem to rule out interpreting this passage as ‘most have sinned, but Mary has not’.

Indeed, I cannot think of a single passage anywhere that indicates anyone was sinless, except Jesus.

Mary herself knew she needed saving, for in Luke we read, “46 And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior...”

Nor did Jesus indicate Mary was in any way sinless.

In Matthew 12 we find,

“46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

And in Luke 11 we read, “27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

The Good News of Jesus is that, while ALL have sinned, ALL can be saved by grace through faith. I have no doubt but that Mary has indeed been saved, by grace, through faith, and her sins have been forgiven. By the sacrifice Jesus offered, “he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy” - including Mary.

But there is no reading of scripture that would lead one to believe Mary was sinless. That tradition is in flagrant contradiction to virtually ever passage in the entire New Testament.


192 posted on 06/23/2009 7:02:40 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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