No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[Petronski]

funny

How odd to laugh at something so important.

keep trying

No need for ME to try. I'm not the one trying to dislodge history.

Show me the word Trinity in the Bible.

Show me sola Scriptura or sola fide or TULIP in the Bible.

[bdeaner]

Because Jesus says so

You mean Jesus came down and told you personally to pick the King James Version of the Bible to believe in and not the Douay-Rheims? Or do you mean you believe Jesus says so because you read it in the Bible?

I assume you mean the latter. Do you see the circular reasoning here? Logical fallacy.



We're back to square one. If you believe Jesus told you in the Bible, well...How do you know the Bible is true? By what authority?

Can you show me where in the Bible it says which version of the Bible to use? Or whether or not to include the deuterocanonicals? Or which New Testament Scriptures are inspired and which ones are not?

[driftdiver]

“I’m not the one trying to dislodge history.”

gotta love you Catholics who invent their own twist to Gods word. But I guess its understandable since thats what you’ve been indoctrinated with. Just as you’ve been taught to worship idols and that a mans intervention is required to be forgiven of your sins.

A Catholic shouldn’t accuse anyone of ‘dodging’ history unless you want to unearth a WHOLE lot of really un-christian like behavior committed by the Catholic church throughout history.

[driftdiver]

God Bless, have a great day

[Petronski]

Just as you’ve been taught to worship idols...

That's just a lie.

Doesn't Exodus 20:16 mean anything to you?

[bdeaner]

God bless.

[driftdiver]

I’ve been to a Catholic church and I’ve sat through your mass.

Its not a lie and its not false testimony

[bdeaner]

I’ve been to a Catholic church and I’ve sat through your mass.

What about the Mass leads you to believe it involves idol worship?

[Petronski]

Its not a lie and its not false testimony

You see, you don't get to decide the intentions of other people. You just don't have that kind of power. You can easily say you believe that's what they're doing, though you'd be wrong.

But worship of idols is a question of intent, and if that is not their intent, you can't change that. You have no effect on it.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church does not teach idol worship. You might interpret that way--go right ahead if you want--but you'd be wrong and your interpretation does not affect what is actually being taught.

Your judgmental false testimony slanders about a billion people. Why do you seem so sanguine about that?

[Petronski]

Be careful of the ones who refuse to capitalize proper nouns like “Catholic Church.”

[driftdiver]

“What about the Mass leads you to believe it involves idol worship?”

I found the tradition to be very interesting, I love history.

Its been a while so I don’t remember all the details. I do remember being led to pray to the figurines of Mary and Peter. Among other things. Praying to any man (or woman) who is not the Son of God is not my ideal.

I’ve also had numerous discussions with Catholics about how you have to go through a Priest to be forgiven or to be saved.

[driftdiver]

yeah those of us who stink at capitalization are of the DEVIL@!@!!

[Petronski]

A Catholic shouldn’t accuse anyone of ‘dodging’ history . . .

On further review you might notice the word I used was "dislodge," not "dodge."

[cva66snipe]

Because Jesus says so

Add to that Jesus sent to man The Holy Spirit who leads us into all truths. By prayer and reading scripture the truth of what we need for the time we need it in the amount we need it {"Give us this day our daily bread"} is given to us. What we need spiritually we can as Christ Disciples did ask GOD directly in Jesus name for it. Our fears we can share, our needs we can let GOD know, and sins as well we can confess and beg forgiveness of to Him alone followed by our repentance.

[Petronski]

...Praying to any man (or woman) who is not the Son of God is not my ideal....

Don't ever ask anyone to pray for you.

[bdeaner]

By the way, I didn't just throw those questions at you without having an answer myself. FYI, do with it as you wish, but I will grant that we at least have common ground in believing the Bible is the Word of God. So let's start there, and let's see if the Bible will tell us where the Bible gets it's authority.

If you have your Bible handy, check out 1 Timothy 3:15. You will see in this passage that it is not the Bible, but the Church--that is, the living community of believers founded upon St. Peter and the Apostles and headed by their succesors--called "the pillar and ground of the truth."

Of course, this passage is not meant in any way to diminish the importance of the Bible, but it is intending to show that Jesus Christ did establish an authoritative teaching Church which was commissioned to teach "all nations" (Matt. 28:19). Elsewhere this same Church received Christ's promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18), that He would always be with it (Matt. 28:20), and that He would give it the Holy Spirit to teach it all truth (John 16:13).

To the visible head of His Church, St. Peter, Our Lord said: "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdowm of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and, whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). It is plainly evident from these passages that Our Lord emphasized the authority of His Church and the role it would have in safeguarding and defining the Deposit of Faith.

It is also evident from these passages that this same Church would be infallible, for if at any time in its history it would definitively teach error to the Church as a whole in matters of faith or morals--even temporarily--it would cease being this "pillar and ground of the truth." Since a "ground" or foundation by its very nature is meant to be a permanent support, and since the above-mentioned passages do not allow for the possibility of the Church ever definitively teaching doctrinal or moral error, the only plausible conclusion is that Our Lord was very deliberate in establishing His Church and that He was referring to its infallibiity when He called it the "pillar and ground of the truth."

But, as we have already discussed, as a Protestant, you have a dilemma here by asserting the Bible to be the sole rule of faith for believers. In what capacity, then, is the Church the "pillar and ground of the truth" if it is not to serve as an infallible authority established by Christ? How can the Church be this "pillar and ground" if it has no tangible, practical ability to serve as an authority in the life of a Christian? You would effectively deny that the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" by denying that the Church has the authority to teach.

Also, as a Protestant, you likely understand the term "church" to mean something different from what the Catholic Church understands it to mean. Most Protestants see "the church" as an invisible entity, and for them it refers collectively to all Christian believers around the world who are united by faith in Christ, despite major variations in doctrine and denominational allegiance. Catholics, on the other hand, understand it to mean not only those true believers who are united as Christ's Mystical Body, but we simultaneously understand it to refer to a visible, historical entity as well, namely, that one--and only that one--organization which can trace its lineage in an unbroken line back to the Apostles themselves: the Catholic Church. It is this Church and this Church alone which was established by Christ and which has maintained an absolute consistency in doctrine throughout its existence, and it is therefore this Church alone which can claim to be that very "pillar and ground of the truth."

Protestantism, by comparison, has known a history of doctrinal vacillations and changes, and no two denominations completely agree--even on major doctrinal issues. Such shifting and changing could not possibly be considered a foundation or "ground of the truth." When the foundation of a structure shifts or is improperly set, that structure's very support is unreliable (cf. Matt. 7:26-27). Since in practice the beliefs of Protestantism have undergone change both within denominations and through the continued appearance of new denominations, these beliefs are like a foundation which shifts and moves. Such beliefs therefore cease to provide the support necessary to maintain the structure they uphold, and the integrity of that structure becomes compromised. Our Lord clearly did not intend for His followers to build their spiritual houses on such an unreliable foundation.

God bless.

[bdeaner]

Add to that Jesus sent to man The Holy Spirit who leads us into all truths.

If the Holy Spirit leads everyone to the same Truth, then why are there so many DIFFERENT sects of Protestantism? They can't all be right!

[bdeaner]

Add to that Jesus sent to man The Holy Spirit who leads us into all truths.

If the Holy Spirit leads everyone to the same Truth, then why are there so many DIFFERENT sects of Protestantism? They can't all be right!

[bdeaner]

Actually, we Catholics do not pray to figurines. The Catholics worship in a full-bodied way, that is consistent with the Incarnation and also a reflection of the Heavenly Liturgy described in the Book of Revelations. There was a time before television and mass media, and stained glass and statues were the way people -- many of whom were illiterature -- were able to learn the narratives of the Bible.

As for Confession, the Catholics follow Christ in their approach to Confession. Jesus gave to the Apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins, reconciling sinners to God for sins committed after Baptism.

On numerous occasions, Jesus exercised the power to forgive sin.

Mk 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Child, your sins are forgiven."

Lk 7:47 So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.

Jesus scandalized some Jews of his own time by claiming to have the authority to forgive sins.

Mk 2:7 Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?

Jesus clearly stated that he had the authority to forgive sins.

Mk 2:10-12 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth"-- he said to the paralytic, "I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home." He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone.

Jesus gave the same authority to Peter.

Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus later gave the same authority to all the Apostles.

Mt 18:18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The Apostle John, an eyewitness, recorded more directly the words of Jesus giving the power to forgive sins to all the Apostles after the testimony of the Resurrection.

Jn 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.

Many Christians ask why confession of sin is required for forgiveness. The Church responds that the need for personal confession of sin is required in order for forgiveness because that is the only way a confessor can judge whether to forgive or retain sins. A judgment cannot be made unless the sin in question is known and the disposition of the penitent is also known.

The New Testament speaks of confession of sin.

Ja 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

1 Jn 1:9 If we acknowledge (confess) our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

Other New Testament scriptures bear witness that the Apostolic Church acknowledged the use of the power to forgive sins.

Acts 2:38 Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

1 Jn 1:9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

1 Jn 2:12 I am writing to you, children, because your sins have been forgiven for his name's sake.

God bless.

[IIntense]

Sometimes it seems like RCs have to have their cake and eat it too.

If I understand you correctly, you mean that sometimes Catholics speak "from both sides of their mouths". Most likely, you're right. On the one hand, the Catholic Church has proclaimed that it is the one true church, outside of which one cannot be saved.

The Church has taken a less stringent position since that decree.

Though it may not be relevant to the subject, I was baptized a Catholic and attended Catholic schools for 12+ years. Throughout my years I've known many Protestants who are/were good-living, caring people. My father and husband were Protestants---hard-working, reliable men who took care of their families.

Aside from the fact that both of them became Catholics later in life, there's no way I will believe that God would have damned them to hell before that.