Posted on 07/07/2009 10:31:26 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Read your Bible and think about what you just said. If Jesus did anything, it was to confront HIS Church about the traditions of men. Jesus had very little use for man made traditions.
I always get in trouble when I start on this subject, but here goes again,.......MOST denominations that wear robes and collars, have repetitive prayers and readings, and follow the traditions of men rather than follow the Holy Spirit. Now I know there are dedicated servants of Christ out there that wear robes and collars, but as a rule, their worship goes 180 deg against the teachings of the Word of God.
If you don't believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, breathed by the Holy Spirit through the pen of men, then I guess traditions of men with fine gold and silver vestments make more sense than what Jesus taught in His normal period clothes. The Spirit of the Bible says different, and in fact Jesus was pretty mean to the leaders of the Temple with their fine vestments and their dead souls. Jesus came to Earth for the main reason of dying for our sins, but He also taught us Spiritual things, and also confronted the Church leaders with their hypocrisies. Much of what we do in church is habit and tradition. What would church be like if we walked in and there wasn't a list of songs and activities thrust in our hand? Real worship might accidentally break out and an encounter with the real loving Lord might fill the building and change lives. We could always discuss the women's meeting with the local clubs and the men fixing the leaking roof and of course asking for money to do whatever, at a later date. Where is it written that we have 3 songs, a sermon, and an alter call every Sunday before we watch the football game? I think Jesus has another idea of what His day is supposed to be for. As long as the regimented worship services( and that is most all denominations), are prescripted, I doubt how much worship actually gets done.
Apostolic succession, as explained by the CAtholic Church, has some difficulties. I posted an article about a year ago that covered them, and they were significant.
That, however, does not rid us of the church structure revealed in the Acts of the Apostles. Paul instructed Titus (and probably Timothy, too) on ordaining elders. The pattern was for elders to ordain elders.
The logic of that says that today’s churches should be connected to the earliest churches. Elders ordaining elders ordaining elders throughout church history.
The weakness of that, of course, is that the church has a spiritual legacy as well. “Those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.”
Likewise, Jesus was clear to his apostles when they complained of others not with them baptizing in Jesus’ name, that those not against Him were for Him.
At the same time, Paul insisted on the re-baptism of those who’d been baptized under the baptism of John. I suggest that Paul’s intent was to bring them into the one spiritual sheepfold.
My take on this is that the spiritual legacy is paramount, but that there is no shame in connecting oneself to the earliest church by way of a lineage of churches or ordained elders. To have both would be a blessing, in my view. I do not believe, though, that the Lord will permit the Church to fail. “The Gates of Hell shall not prevail.”
But, to have an ordination lineage and yet be steeped in spiritual unfaithfulness would mean nothing. Revelation 2, I believe, clearly indicates that the Lord will remove a church’s candlestick (light) for unfaithfulness.
I can’t claim that for my own.
Well, all I can say is thank the Eternal Holy Trinity I never have to stand in front of YOUR dread throne of judgement, Chuck. Me, personally, my own sins are far too great to stand in judgement of anyone.
We Orthodox know for certain where the Lord is worshipped and glorified (and has been for 2,000 years - whether YOU like it or not) and we don’t make judgements about where the Lord isn’t. We do know where He IS.
How ‘bout YOU return the favor?
“The answer is that the Reformation recovered the pure teaching of the original apostles themselves.”
Now thats a great one.
They cannot even agree on what it was that was recovered which is why they have so many splits.
***God picked Paul to replace Judas. There is no comparison between Matthias and Paul. ***
Read Acts 1 again. The Apostles were in one accord in prayer, and cast lots for Judas’ seat. The requirement to be one of the 12 was the person chosen had to have been with the Apostles from the baptism by John to the ascention.
Paul did not meet these requirements. He was specificly chosen later to be a separate Apostle to the Gentiles.
I believe that the Bible is the word of God. But we do not have the original bible. And I do not accept that it is complete and no knowledge of God and Christ exists outside of it. That knowledge is said to have been passed on from Christ to His Church through those he directly sent. This is what I believe, although I understand others have not come to this belief in their training and traditions.
Exactly. Just another fairy tale from Rome.
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
John 20:23
“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
“Man-made” laws and rules given by the Catholic Church, such as apostolic succession are not man-made - the power to make these rules was given by Jesus himself. If the Vatican were to declare “ex-Cathedra” tomorrow that we needed to wear pink hats on Mondays or else it would be a mortal sin, then that would be a mortal sin. Of course that example is silly, but the power does lie in the Vatican to decide what is sinful.
To attack me is bizarre. If your denomination varies from the Scripture, does the denomination win or God? The traditions of men have been around for more than 2000 years and Jesus spoke of them. He wasn't happy.
One thing is for certain. If you study the letters to the churches in Revelation, everyone likes to think they are from Philadelphia.
I was going to make this short, but alas, I just can't. I have many examples, but I will choose just one to make my point. My mother attends a United Methodist church. She was diagnosed with colon cancer and received a visit from her pastor who visited with her and at the end of the visit, my wife and I prayed with him and my mother. It was the most bland, non specific, "I hope you get better, but if God wants you dead, so be it" , prayer I've ever heard. Outside the room, I asked if he had ever seen a prayer answered. He, of course said yes. I asked if he had ever witnessed a healing, he nervously said no. I told him of my mother in law that had been diagnosed with aplastic anemia and was told it was terminal. To make a long story short, my wife prayed to Jesus for what we needed to pray for, for our prayers had gone unanswered for months. She had a voice tell her to pray for her specific need and she knew immediately what to pray for. The next day, she was going to have a hip replacement and I couldn't see how she could survive that with no platelets. My wife said she prayed for one stem of Jesus' bone marrow for her mother. They did the hip replacement and my mother in law was cured, right then, that day, that moment. She went in the operating room with a platelet number of 20k and left the operating room with over 70k. She received NO platelets in the OR from the doctors. She was healed of her aplastic anemia and she left the hospital and NEVER received another bag of blood, or blood products. The doctor couldn't explain it and said he had never seen anything like it in his whole practice and he was an expert in aplastic anemia and wrote several books on the subject.
I said all this and more in front of the Methodist preacher and he just said "It must have been something else". I asked him why he bothered to pray if he didn't believe God was able to heal? If God wasn't able to heal my mother in law of a terminal disease, could He raise me from the dead? He had no answer, but my impression was that was that he was expected pray, so he did. I had been to my mothers church before and they read some passages in the back of their hymnal, they sang some hymns, they had a sermon that had a few humorous stories in it, and we went home. If you wanted to be saved, you had to sign a card. This is a dead church!
I don't want to pick on this denomination, or even this church. My daughter was a gospel singer for a few years before college and we attended hundreds of churches of all denominations. My observations come from years of looking at churches and for the most part, the ones with collars and robes were pretty much dead. One church even offered communion with leavened bread. This is where abortion is accepted, evolution is justified, and sodomites are accepted and baptized without repentance. If your church follows the teachings of God, then God bless you. God and evil are at war. If your church disagrees with God in favor of traditions of men, who's side are you on? Repetitive prayers, gold, jewels, and fine robes have NOTHING to do with worshiping God. God is looking for broken hearts, not fine surroundings. Fine buildings and beautiful vestments won't save souls.
Many of the preachers and priests today seem to consider it a job instead of a calling. I don't believe you can get appointed by some board in another state and sent to a job and change peoples lives. There is too much politics involved and even nepotism.
P.S. My mother made it fine and is cancer free for more than 17 years. Was it his prayer,.... my family's prayers,.... the doctors skill,.... luck? No one can know, but I think she was healed by faith from a believer that had a personal relationship with Jesus. We all die, but God works through those that believe and testify of Him.
There is no original written Bible. My faith in God tells me the Bible we have was carefully assembled with the knowledge we need to know Jesus and be saved by Holy Spirit led people .
The Bible tells us that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Later it says the Word became flesh. It also tells us that Scripture is to be used for teaching and correction, so why use something inaccurate to teach and correct with? The Bible is close enough to prophesy Jesus, His birth, Death, and Resurrection, and even the future Revelation of His return. Faith is what saves you. Be careful what you say you believe and what you don't. I choose to believe God. How can I do that unless He gives me His Word and promises? Do I get my religion from the Discovery Channel? Let's just all take a vote to see what we think God said.
This is the oldest bugaboo in the world where you could say we REALLY don't know this or that because the Bible was written by men, so we can abort babies, commit sodomy, or even eat from a forbidden tree.
Pretty old huh? Nothing new under the sun.
I attacked no one, Chuck. How you got to that conclusion I haven’t the foggiest of notions - however, if you choose to view my words as a personal attack, that’s your concern and yours alone.
As an Orthodox Christian, I have no problem with scripture whatsoever. Again, how you got there I haven’t a clue. We recognize it for exactly what it is, where it came from, and how it got here.
The Bible is a gift from The Eternal One through the vehicle of His Church, of whose tradition it is a very important part. It contains the Word of God and the Wisdom of Men of God. It is a creation of the Holy Eternal One, just like you and me.
I was a protestant for 30+ years (Southern Baptist and then United Methodist) under the shepherding of some who were pious, some who were outright apostate, but mostly those who were indifferent. Attended a Baptist college for 2 years. So I do possess some understanding of the evangelical mindset.
Chuck, it’s fairly clear to me from your comments that you have little understanding of the Holy Orthodox faith. I respectfully request that you set about learning something about Christ’s Ancient Church, its history, doctrines and traditions, before you continue to criticize it.
Good day to you, now.
No need to bother...Joseph Smith solved all that and the apostles are currently residing in Temple Square, Salt Lake City. /s
LOL!!!!
That’s a GORGEOUS photo on your namepage.
I grew up down south, and have been back here for 5 years now. But Colorado stole my heart when we lived there and I consider it my adopted home.
LOVE the hills of CO and NM!
Thank you, my friend. Just seeing that photo brightened my day.
I grew up in southern CO, and moved to NM in the sixties. I’ve lived in various other states, but this whole area is home to me. Glad you like the photo.
The requirement is to be called by Jesus and follow Him. Paul was personally called by Jesus. Matthias was not.
Matthias did not take the Heavenly office of Judas, but the Earthy.
There are 2 verses to contemplate. Matthew 19:28 "you who have followed me". There is an important prerequisite: the personal calling must be first. Judas was called, but did not follow. This does not exclude Paul, but specifically includes Paul. Paul was called by Jesus and he did follow.
Luke 22: 28-30. Here Jesus is talking to the 11 who stayed with Him. Judas is excluded from this promise. Matthias couldn't take Judas' throne because Judas never had a throne.
The seat on the thrones are Jesus' to give. He who sits on the throne must be personally called by Jesus and that person must follow Jesus. Jesus called 13, but only 12 followed. Jesus never called Matthias to follow. Jesus did call Paul.
The Acts does follow a little bit of what the Apostles did.
And there is some History.
But what you do not take into account is the various churches started the Apostles that have withstood the test of time.
For example -- the doubting one -- Thomas -- started 7 churches in India. They are basically intact today after 2000 years.
That means in a Hindu/Moslem country, they have withstood some pretty severe hardships.
And did Thomas get on board a 747 and fly to India to get this started? He did a lot of walking. He traveled by Caravan, and he had to travel (perhaps) by sea.
Paul, on the other hand, used his Roman citizenship to be tried in Rome. So he got locked up in prison.
The only thing you can do in prison is write. And that is what Paul did. And that does survive to this day.
But the other apostles went about establishing churches everywhere that they could travel to...
Paul was restricted on his traveling...
Man can not give something that is Jesus' to give. To be one of the 12 in Heaven requires a personal calling and a willingness to follow.
The 11 original Apostles who followed were personally called, as was Paul. Matthias was not directly called by a personal invitation from Jesus, but through an indirect calling of prayer and lots.
****The requirement is to be called by Jesus and follow Him. Paul was personally called by Jesus. Matthias was not.
Matthias did not take the Heavenly office of Judas, but the Earthy. ****
Did the Apostles choose the wrong person? If they had they would have been out of the weill of God and the Holy Spirit would not have fallen upon them.
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