Posted on 07/18/2009 10:06:20 PM PDT by bdeaner
Pilsner’s looking better at this point. Don’t defy the independence of any of this Country’s founders. They are historic for a reason.
stormer: “My intent was to demonstrate that some founders were less than enamored with religion and in fact may have preferred a society more like the one that Dawkins advocates.”
Oh, I clearly think a number of the founders despised state-run religion, like the Church of England. Remember, a lot of our settlers were Christians who fled religious persecution in Europe. I don’t like state-operated churches either and think they should be abolished. The Church of England, for example, is barely even Christian. They do far more harm than good.
At our constitutional convention, our founding fathers, each had actually taken an oath, that stated that they were a Christian!
It is clearly written in the Mayflower Compact, that the reason for founding the colony in America was:
“Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith,”
The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a temporary government was formed in 1638, said explicitly:
“...to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess..”
It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often, that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”~~Patrick Henry
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for the rulers.”~~John Jay
“The Birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior and forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation”.......
“The Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth and laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.”~~John Quincy Adams
“Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned. ... Let us in the first place..... humbly and penitently implore the aid of the Almighty God whom we profess to serve. Let us earnestly call and beseech Him for Christ’s sake to preside in our councils.” —Elias Boudnot - President of the Continental Congress.
“No free government now exists in the world unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country”.....Christianity is part of the common law.”~~1826 ruling by the Supreme Court of the United States.
Our own Supreme Court gave our Christian History, and acknowledged that we are a Christian nation, in its 1887 decision on the case, Church of the Holy Trinity V. U.S. In this decision, it stated clearly, that:
“We are a Christian nation” And also sited other Supreme Court decisions in which this fact was clear. None more clear than The People V. Ruggles, in which the Court said:
“The people of this State, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity, as the rule of their faith and practice...We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors” And, also the quote from Vidal v. Girard’s Executors: “It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law”
House Judiciary Committee, March 27, 1854
“Had the people, (the founding fathers) during the revolution, a suspicion of any attempt to war against any Christianity, that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle.... at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments, the universal sentiment was Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect. In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity. That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.” Two months later, they said,
“The great vital and conservative element in our system (the thing that holds our system together) is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
Christianity is what formed our nation, and made it great. Everyone is welcome to come to our table, but the truth is that that table was set by Jesus Christ.
Obama, snopes nor yourself can change the history of this great country.
“Don’t defy the independence of any of this Country’s founders. They are historic for a reason.”
Agree.
This is what you can expect when Christianity is put in the hands of a government program (in this case, the CoE). For this reason, I abhor “faith-based initiatives” and so should other Christians, IMO.
Outside of the authors of the Bible, Dostoevsky was the most prophetic author I’ve ever read. I sometimes wonder if he had the spiritual gift of prophecy.
Perhaps, but then again, if not in fellowship with God at the time of spiritual influence, one must discern if he was under demonic influence or guidance by God the Holy Spirit.
A good work of God is the faith of the believer. His work always glorifies the Son. If Dostoevsky’s work glorifies the Son, then perhaps he was under the guidance of God. On the other hand, if not glorifying of the Son, then the work is discernible from that of God.
Romans 1:21-32
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Sadly people look to the government for their religion. They could take EVERY aspect of religion out of the United States and I would still be as Catholic as I am today. Sadly conservatives look to government to fix this too. If people would attend church on Sunday and pray during the week, they would not be frightened to death about the government getting involved in religion. Sad Sad Sad!!!! I guess it helped that I went to Catholic School for twelve years and have a very strong relationship to God.
Interesting. Thank you.
Dostoevsky was a former anarchist radical turned Christian. Disdain for atheism, socialism, anarchism, “free love”, etc. drips from his novels (oddly enough many leftists are fans of his, either because he is the greatest writer who ever lived and they overlook his mockery of them or because it is over their heads) as does praise for God and salvation through Christ as a means of redemption.
Read The Brothers Karamazov or Crime and Punishment or Demons.
Perhaps a ‘rather’ convenient piece of evidence - a Dan Rather repeat or Obama’s Birth Certificate? Who knows for sure?
John Adams (to Abigail July 4, 1776)And, the Government allowed for the Free Practice of Religion in the early days of the Republic... even in Government buildings. Below is an excerpt from the Diary of John Quincy Adams describing a church service held in the Supreme Court Chamber.
"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” “...[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
(October 11, 1798)
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
(letter to Thomas Jefferson)
The last two paragraphs read: "...The Parson and the Pedagogue lived much together, but were eternally disputing about government and religion. One day, when the Schoolmaster had been more that commonly fanatical and declared if he were a Monarch, He would have but one Religion in his Dominion. The Parson cooly replied 'Cleverly! You would be the best man in the world, if you had no religion.'
Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamatic I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell..."
Adam's Fast Day Declaration:
Ben Franklin
(Speech to Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787)
"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel..."
"...In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?”
original transcript, below:
Also, when Franklin helped to found Ben Franklin University, it was dedicated - at his insistence - as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."
Charles Carroll (letter to James McHenry on November 4, 1800)
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."
John Hancock: (A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775[Massachusettes])
"In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations."
(Proclaimation of the Massachusettes Legislature to the Continental Congress)
John Jay(As President of the Continental Congress: Proclamation call for a Day of Fasting Humiliation and Prayer, to the Congress, March 20, 1779)
There is ample evidence that the Founding Fathers turned to the Christian Faith as the defining principles on which the country was founded and even considered the country to be a Christian nation. The Patrick Henry "quote" though just isn't really a quote, that's all.I meant to write:
There is ample evidence that the Founding Fathers turned to the Christian Faith as the defining principles on which the country was founded and even considered the country to be a Christian nation. To argue otherwise is disingenuous with respect to documented history. The Patrick Henry "quote" though just isn't really a quote, that's all.Whatever that means to the average American today, or how one believes religious principles should be applied today, doesn't matter. Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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