Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies.
Locked on 07/22/2009 7:38:29 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:

Childish behavior.



Skip to comments.

The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

Posted on 07/20/2009 9:32:05 PM PDT by bdeaner



God created man that he might possess his Creator forever in the beatific vision. Those who die in the state of enmity toward God are deprived of this happiness. Between these extremes are people who are neither estranged from God nor wholly dedicated to Him when they die. What will be their lot after death?

The response of faith is that nothing defiled can enter heaven (Rev 21:27), and therefore anyone less than perfect must first be cleansed before he can be admitted to the vision of God.

If this doctrine of Catholicism is less strenuously opposed than the one on hell, over the centuries it has nevertheless become something of a symbol of Rome. Historically, the Reformation was occasioned by a dispute over indulgences, with stress on indulgences for the souls in purgatory. Since that time, the existence of an intermediate state between earth and heaven has remained a stumbling block to reunion and its final acceptance by the Protestant churches would mean a reversal of four hundred years of divergence.

Too often the eschatology of the Catholic Church is considered her own private domain, when actually the whole of Eastern Orthodoxy subscribes (substantially) to Catholic teaching on the Last Things, including the doctrine on purgatory.

Those In Purgatory

When we speak of the souls of the just in purgatory we are referring to those that leave the body in the state of sanctifying grace and are therefore destined by right to enter heaven. Their particular judgment was favorable, although conditional: provided they are first cleansed to appear before God. The condition is always fulfilled.

The poor souls in purgatory still have the stains of sin within them. This means two things. First, it means that the souls have not yet paid the temporal penalty due, either for venial sins, or for mortal sins whose guilt was forgiven before death. It may also mean the venial sins themselves, which were not forgiven either as to guilt or punishment before death. It is not certain whether the guilt of venial sins is strictly speaking remitted after death, and if so, how the remission takes place.

We should also distinguish between the expiatory punishments that the poor souls in purgatory pay and the penalties of satisfaction which souls in a state of grace pay before death. Whereas before death a soul can cleanse itself by freely choosing to suffer for its sins, and can gain merit for this suffering, a soul in purgatory can not so choose and gains no merit for the suffering and no increase in glory. Rather, it is cleansed according to the demands of Divine Justice.

We are not certain whether purgatory is a place or a space in which souls are cleansed. The Church has never given a definite answer to this question. The important thing to understand is that it is a state or condition in which souls undergo purification.

The Catholic practice of offering prayers and sacrifices for the dead is known as offering suffrages. These suffrages are offered both by the individuals and by the Church. They are intended to obtain for the poor soul, either partial or total remission of punishment still to be endured.

Who are the faithful that can pray effectively for the poor souls? They are primarily all baptized Christians but may be anyone in a state of grace. At least the state of grace is probably necessary to gain indulgences for the dead.

The angels and saints in heaven can also help these souls in purgatory and obtain a mitigation of their pains. When they do so, the process is not by way of merit or of satisfaction, but only through petition. A study of the Church's official prayers reveals that saints and the angelic spirits are invoked for the Church Suffering (i.e., those in purgatory), but always to intercede and never otherwise.

Contrary Views

Since patristic times there have been many who have denied the existence of purgatory and have claimed it is useless to pray for the dead. Arius, a fourth-century priest of Alexandria who claimed that Christ is not God, was a prime example. In the Middle Ages, the Albigenses, Waldenses, and Hussites all denied the existence of purgatory. Generally, the denial by these different groups of heretics was tied in with some theoretical position on grace, or merit, or the Church's authority. But until the Reformation, there was no major reaction to Catholic doctrine on the existence of purgatory.

With the advent of the Reformers, every major Protestant tradition — the Reformed (Calvinist), Evangelical (Lutheran), Anglican (Episcopal) and Free Church (Congregational) — took issue with Roman Catholicism to disclaim a state of purification between death and celestial glory.

John Calvin set the theological groundwork for the disclaimer, which he correctly recognized to be a part of the Protestant idea that salvation comes from grace alone in such a way that it involves no human cooperation:

"We should exclaim with all our might, that purgatory is a pernicious fiction of Satan, that it makes void the cross of Christ, that it intolerably insults the Divine Mercy, and weakens and overturns our faith. For what is their purgatory, but a satisfaction for sins paid after death by the souls of the deceased? Thus the notion of satisfaction being overthrown, purgatory itself is immediately subverted from its very foundation."

It has been fully proved that the blood of Christ is the only satisfaction, expiation, and purgation for the sins of the faithful. What, then, is the necessary conclusion but that purgation is nothing but a horrible blasphemy against Christ? I pass by the sacrilegious pretences with which it is daily defended, the offences, which it produces in religion, and the other innumerable evils, which we see to have come from such a source of impiety."
Institutes of the Christian Religion, III, 5.

Calvin's strictures have been crystallized in the numerous Reformed Confessions of Faith, like the Westminster Confession of the Presbyterian Church. "Prayer is to be made," says the Confession, "for things lawful, and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter; but not for the dead, nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death" (Chapter XXI, Section 4).

In the Augsburg Confession of the Lutheran churches, it is stated that "the Mass is not a sacrifice to remove the sins of others, whether living or dead, but should be a Communion in which the priest and others receive the sacrament for themselves" (Chapter XXIV, The Mall).

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Communion, which in the United States is the Protestant Episcopal Church, are equally clear. They place the existence of purgatory in the same category with image worship and invocation of the saints:

"The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God" (Article XXII).

Standard formularies of the Free Church tradition simply omit mention of purgatory from their Confessions of Faith, with a tendency in the United Church of Christ towards universalism. Thus life everlasting is univocally equated with blessedness, the "never-ending life of the soul with God," which means "the triumph of righteousness (in) the final victory of good over evil, which must come because God wills it" (Christian Faith and Purpose: A Catechism, Boston, p. 21).

A fine testimony to the ancient faith in purgatory occurs in the authoritative Confession of Dositheus, previously referred to. This creed of the Orthodox Church was produced by a synod convened in Jerusalem in 1672 by Patriarch Dositheus. The occasion for the creed was Cyril Lucaris, who had been elected Patriarch of Alexandria in 1602 and of Constantinople in 1621, Lucaris was strongly influenced by Protestantism and especially by Reformed theology. His Protestant predilections aroused the opposition of his own people. He was finally strangled by the Turks, who thought he was guilty of treason.

The Confession of Dositheus defines Orthodoxy over against Protestantism. It is the most important Orthodox confession of modern times:

"We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to each hath wrought. For when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For, after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation. Such as though involved in mortal sins have not departed in despair but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to their sins which they have committed.

But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness through the prayers of the priests and the good works which the relative of each perform for their departed — especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing the highest degree — which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. It is not known, of course, when they will be released. We know and believe that there is deliverance for them from their dire condition, before the common resurrection and judgment, but we do not know when" (Decree XVII).

An unexpected development in contemporary Episcopalianism is the verbal admission of Article XXII of the Thirty-nine Articles alongside a belief in prayers for the dead sanctioned by the American Book of Common Prayer. Among others, one oration reads: "O God, whose mercies cannot be numbered, accept our prayers on behalf of the soul of thy servant, and grant him (her) an entrance into the land of light and joy, in the fellowship of thy saints" (p. 34). Masses for the faithful departed are also offered in the High Church Episcopalianism.

Biblical Elements Of Purgatory

The definition of the Catholic Church on the existence of purgatory is derived from Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition, which Christ promised would enable the Church to interpret Scripture without error. In particular, the Church relied on the writings of the early Fathers in defining this article of faith.

The classic text in the Old Testament bearing witness to the belief of the Jewish people in the existence of a state of purgation where souls are cleansed before entering heaven is found in the Book of Maccabees. Judas Maccabeus (died 161 BC) was a leader of the Jews in opposition to Syrian dominance, and Hellenizing tendencies among his people. He resisted a Syrian army and renewed religious life by rededicating the temple; the feast of Hanukkah celebrates this event.

In context, Judas had just completed a successful battle against the Edomites and was directing the work of gathering up the bodies of the Jews who had fallen in battle. As the bodies were picked up, it was found that every one of the deceased had, under his shirt, amulets of the idols of Jamnia, which the Law forbade the Jews to wear. Judas and his men concluded that this was a divine judgment against the fallen, who died because they had committed this sin of disobedience. The sacred writer describes what happened next:

"So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden and fell to supplication, begging that the sin that had been committed should be wholly blotted out.

And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, after having seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took a collection, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, each man contributing, and sent it to Jerusalem, to provide a sin offering, acting very finely and properly in taking account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead; or if it was through reward destined for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be set free from their sin" (2 Mac 12:42-46).

The Maccabean text shows that Judas, and the Jewish priests and people believed that those who died in peace could be helped by prayers and sacrifices offered by the living. Luther denied the canonicity of seven books of the Old Testament (the Deuterocanonical books), including the two books of Maccabees. But even if the text were not inspired, as an authentic witness to Jewish history in pre-Christian times it testifies to the common belief in a state of purgation after death and in the ability to help the faithful departed by prayers of intercession on their behalf. Jewish tradition since the time of Christ supports this view.

There are also certain passages in the New Testament that the Church commonly cites as containing evidence of the existence of purgatory. In the Gospel of Matthew, Christ warns the Pharisees that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next (Mt. 12:32). Here Christ recognizes that there exists a state beyond this world in which the penalty due for sins, which were pardoned as to guilt in the world, is forgiven. St. Paul also affirms the reality of purgatory. In his first letter to the Corinthians, he says that "the fire will assay the quality of everyone's work," and "if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor 3:13, 15). These words clearly imply some penal suffering. Since he connects it so closely with the divine judgment, it can hardly be limited to suffering in this world, but seems to include the idea of purification through suffering after death, namely in purgatory.

The Fathers On Purgatory

During the first four centuries of the Christian era, the existence of purgatory was commonly taught in the Church, as seen in its universal practice of offering prayers and sacrifices for the dead.

The most ancient liturgies illustrate the custom in such prayers as the following: "Let us pray for our brothers who have fallen asleep in Christ, that the God of the highest charity towards men, who has summoned the soul of the deceased, may forgive him all his sin and, rendered well-disposed and friendly towards him, may call him to the assembly of the living" (Apostolic Constitutions, 8:41).

Equally ancient are the inscriptions found in the catacombs, which provide numerous examples of how the faithful offered prayers for their departed relatives and friends. Thus we read from engravings going back to the second century such invocations as: "Would that God might refresh your spirit . . . Ursula, may you be received by Christ . . . Victoria, may your spirit be at rest in good . . . Kalemir, may God grant peace to your spirit and that of your sister, Hildare . . . Timothy, may the eternal life be yours in Christ."

Writers before Augustine explicitly teach that souls stained with temporal punishment due to sins are purified after death. St. Cyprian (died 258) taught that penitents who die before the Sacrament of Penance must perform the remainder of any atonement required in the other world, while martyrdom counts as full satisfaction (Epistola 55, 20). St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) described the sacred rites of the Liturgy with the comment, "Then we pray also for the dead, our holy fathers, believing that this will be a great help for the souls of those for whom the prayer is offered" (Catechesis, 32).

St. Augustine not only presumed the existence of purgatory as a matter of divine faith, but also testified to this belief from the Scriptures. Among other statements, he said, "some believers will pass through a kind of purgatorial fire. In proportion as they loved the goods that perish with more of less devotion, they shall be more of less quickly delivered from the flames." He further declared that the deceased are "benefited by the piety of their living friends, who offer the Sacrifice of the Mediator, or give alms to the Church on their behalf. But these services are of help only to those lives had earned such merit that suffrages of this could assist them. For there is a way of life that is neither so good as to dispense with these services after death, nor so bad that after death they are of not benefit" (Enchiridion 69, 110).

Augustine's most beautiful tribute to purgatory occurs in the book of his Confessions, where he describes the death of his mother Monica and recalls her final request, "Lay this body anywhere at all. The care of it must not trouble you. This only I ask of you, that you remember me at the altar of the Lord wherever you are." Augustine complied with his mother's desire and admits that he did not weep "even in those prayers that were poured forth to Thee while the sacrifice of our redemption was offered for her" (Confessions, IX, 11).

After the Patristic period, the Church did not significantly develop the doctrine of purgatory for many centuries. Then in the twelfth century, Pope Innocent IV (1243-54), building upon the writings of the Fathers, expounded in detail upon the doctrine. In context, Innocent was concerned with reuniting the Greek Church which had been in schism since the Photian scandal in the ninth century. He appealed to the Greek's belief in a state of purgation as a point of departure from which to bring them into communion with Rome. In a doctrinal letter to the apostolic delegate in Greece, he discussed the common belief:

"It is said that the Greeks themselves unhesitatingly believe and maintain that the souls of those who do not perform a penance which they have received, or the souls of those who die free from mortal sins but with even the slightest venial sins, are purified after death and can be helped by the prayers of the Church.

Since the Greeks say that their Doctors have not given them a definite and proper name for the place of such purification, We, following the tradition and authority of the holy Fathers, call that place purgatory; and it is our will that the Greeks use that name in the future.

For sins are truly purified by that temporal fire — not grievous or capital sins which have not first been remitted by penance, but small and slight sins which remain a burden after death, if they have not been pardoned during life" (DB, 456).

The Second Council of Lyons, convened in 1274, used the teaching of Pope Innocent IV in its formal declaration on purgatory. This declaration stated:

"If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments . . . The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful."

The next major pronouncement by the Catholic Church regarding purgatory came shortly before the Council of Trent, from Pope Leo X who condemned a series of propositions of Martin Luther, including the following:

"Purgatory cannot be proved from the Sacred Scripture which is the Canon. The souls in purgatory are not sure about their salvation, a least not all of them. Moreover it has not been proved from reason or from the Scriptures that they are beyond the state of merit or of growing in charity" (DB 777-778).

The Council of Trent went further, including in the Decree on Justification an anathema of those who deny the debt of temporal punishment, remissible either in this life or in the next:

"If anyone says that, after receiving the grace of justification the guilt of any repentant sinner is remitted and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such a way that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid, either in this life or in purgatory, before the gate to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema" (DB 840).

Fifteen years after the Decree on Justification, and shortly before its closing sessions, the Council of Trent issued a special Decree on Purgatory, as well as corresponding decrees on sacred images, invocation of the saints and indulgences. It was a summary statement that referred to the previous definition and that cautioned against some of the abuses that gave rise to the Protestant opposition:

"The Catholic Church, by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, in accordance with Sacred Scripture and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, has taught in the holy councils, and most recently in this ecumenical council, that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.

Therefore, this holy council commands the bishops to be diligently on guard that the true doctrine about purgatory, the doctrine handed down from the holy Fathers and the sacred councils, be preached everywhere, and that Christians be instructed in it, believe it, and adhere to it.

But let the more difficult and subtle controversies, which neither edify nor generally cause any increase of piety, be omitted from the ordinary sermons to the poorly instructed. Likewise, they should not permit anything that is uncertain or anything that appears to be false to be treated in popular or learned publications. And should forbid as scandalous and injurious to the faithful whatever is characterized by a kind of curiosity and superstition, or is prompted by motives of dishonorable gain" (DB 983).

Most recently, the Second Vatican Council in its Constitution on the Church renewed the teaching of previous councils on eschatology, including the doctrine of purgatory. "This sacred Council," it declared, "accepts with great devotion this venerable faith of our ancestors regarding this vital fellowship with our brethren who are in heavenly glory or who, having died, are still being purified . . . At the same time, in conformity with our own pastoral interests, we urge all concerned, if any abuses, excesses or defects have crept in here or there, to do what is in their power to remove or correct them, and to restore all things to a fuller praise of Christ and of God" (Chapter VII, no. 51).

Meaning Of The Doctrine

Although not defined doctrine, it is certain that the essential pain in purgatory is the pain of loss, because the souls are temporarily deprived of the beatific vision.

Their suffering is intense on two counts: (1) the more something is desired, the more painful its absence, and the faithful departed intensely desire to possess God now that they are freed from temporal cares and no longer held down by the spiritual inertia of the body; (2) they clearly see that their deprivation was personally blameworthy and might have been avoided if only they had prayed and done enough penance during life.

However, there is no comparison between this suffering and the pains of hell. The suffering of purgatory is temporary and therefore includes the hope of one day seeing the face of God; it is borne with patience since the souls realize that purification is necessary and they do not wish to have it otherwise; and it is accepted generously, out of love for God and with perfect submission to His will.

Moreover, purgatory includes the pain of sense. Some theologians say that not every soul is punished with this further pain, on the premise that it may be God's will to chastise certain people only with the pain of loss.

Theologically, there is less clarity about the nature of this pain of sense. Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of "a transitory fire" (DB 456). Nevertheless, at the union council of Florence, the Greeks were not required to abandon the opposite opinion, that the fire of purgatory is not a physical reality.

We do not know for certain how intense are the pains in purgatory. St. Thomas Aquinas held that the least pain in purgatory was greater than the worst in this life. St. Bonaventure said the worst suffering after death was greater than the worst on earth, but the same could not be said regarding the least purgatorial suffering.

Theologians commonly hold, with St. Robert Bellarmine, that in some way the pains of purgatory are greater than those on earth. At least objectively the loss of the beatific vision after death, is worse than its non-possession now. But on the subjective side, it is an open question. Probably the pains in purgatory are gradually diminished, so that in the latter stages we could not compare sufferings on earth with the state of a soul approaching the vision of God.

Parallel with their sufferings, the souls also experience intense spiritual joy. Among the mystics, St. Catherine of Genoa wrote, "It seems to me there is no joy comparable to that of the pure souls in purgatory, except the joy of heavenly beatitude." There are many reasons for this happiness. They are absolutely sure of their salvation. They have faith, hope and great charity. They know themselves to be in divine friendship, confirmed in grace and no longer able to offend God.

Although the souls in purgation perform supernatural acts, they cannot merit because they are no longer in the state of wayfarers, nor can they increase in supernatural charity. By the same token, they cannot make satisfaction, which is the free acceptance of suffering as compensation for injury, accepted by God on account of the dignity of the one satisfying. The sufferings in purgatory are imposed on the departed, without leaving them the option of "free acceptance" such as they had in mortal life. They can only make "satispassion" for their sins, by patiently suffering the demand of God's justice.

The souls in purgatory can pray, and, since impetration is the fruit of prayer, they can also impetrate. The reason is that impetration does not depend on strict justice as in merit, but on divine mercy. Moreover, the impetratory power of their prayers depends on their sanctity.

It is therefore highly probable that the poor souls can impetrate a relaxation of their own (certainly of other souls') sufferings. But they do not do this directly; only indirectly in obtaining from God the favor that the Church might pray for them and that prayers offered by the faithful might be applied to them.

However, it is not probable but certain that they can pray and impetrate on behalf of those living on earth. They are united with the Church Militant by charity in the Communion of Saints. At least two councils approved the custom of invoking the faithful departed. According to the Council of Vienne, they "assist us by their suffrages." And in the words of the Council of Utrecht, "We believe that they pray for us to God." St. Bellarmine wrote at length on the efficacy of invoking the souls in purgatory. The Church has formally approved the practice, as in the decree of Pope Leo XIII granting an indulgence for any prayer in which the intercession of the faithful departed is petitioned (Acta Sanctae Sedis, 1889-90, p.743).

A Problem

A major problem arises regarding the forgiveness of venial sins in a person who is dying in the state of grace. When and how are they remitted? Is the forgiveness before death? If so, by what right? What has the person done to deserve forgiveness, since it is not likely God would remove the guilt of sins that were not repented of. Or is it after death? But then how can this take place, since ex hypothesi the person can no longer merit or truly satisfy, but can only suffer to remove the reatus poenae

According to one theory (Alexander of Hales), venial sins are always removed in this life through the grace of final perseverance, even without an act of contrition. Remission takes place "in the very dissolution of body and soul," when concupiscence is also extinguished. Few theologians look on this opinion favorably, both because there is nothing in the sources to suggest that final perseverance remits guilt, and because everything indicates the need for some human counterpart in the remission of sin.

Others claim (e.g., St. Bonaventure) that forgiveness occurs in purgatory itself by a kind of "accidental merit" which allows for the removal of guilt and not only satispassion in virtue of Divine Justice. If anything, this theory is less probable than the foregoing because it presumes there is a possibility of merit after death.

Blessed Dun Scotus and the Franciscan school say the deletion takes place either in purgatory or at the time of death. If in purgatory, it is on the assumption that the expiating venial sins is nothing more than remitting the penalty they deserve; if at the time of death, it could be right at the moment the soul leaves the body or an instant after. In any case, Scotists postulate that remission occurs because of merits previously gained during life on earth. This position is not much favored because it seems to identify habitual sin with its penalty and claim that venial sins are remissible without subjective penance.

The most common explanation is that venial sins are remitted at the moment of death, through the fervor of a person's love of God and sorrow for his sins. For although a soul on leaving the body can no longer merit or make real satisfaction, it can retract its sinful past. Thus, it leaves its affection for sin and, without increasing in sanctifying grace or removing any penalty (as happens in true merit), it can have deleted the reatus culpae The latter is incompatible with the exalted love of God possessed by a spirit that leaves the body in divine friendship but stained with venial faults.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; purgatory; salvation; soteriology
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 301-346 next last
I would like to request your kind compliance with my request to feel free to post both critical and supportive comments on this article, but to do so with an ecumenical spirit and in a warm, respectful attitude, with the assumption that all parties have a common and sincere aim of arriving at the Truth. Thank you, and God bless.

To put this post in context, the notion of purgatory has been raised in debates among Christians of Catholic and Protestant perspectives on various threads, but the debates have been somewhat unrelated, or only tangentially related to the original topic of the threads. I've posted this description of Catholic doctrine on Purgatory to both clarify how Catholics understand Purgatory and to invite continued, respectful and ecumenical dialogue on the topic, for the benefit of all. Have fun.
1 posted on 07/20/2009 9:32:06 PM PDT by bdeaner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

ping for later


2 posted on 07/20/2009 9:40:02 PM PDT by skr (May God confound the enemy)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Someone please give me the specific scripture verse (or verses) that give the doctrine of “Purgatory”.

The very verse given by the author simply supporting that all souls that enter Heaven (into the presence of the Holy and Perfect God) must be cleansed - that is the work of Jesus Christ’s propitiation on the Cross (His blood paid the price for our sins, cleansing us from that sin - though the final cleansing happens when our spirit leaves this shell of a body)

“Purgatory” is simply a man-made concept to promote the Catholic Church’s position far earlier in her history for getting scared people to pay the church to get their way out of Purgatory.


3 posted on 07/20/2009 9:41:13 PM PDT by TheBattman (Pray for our country...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Very informative post- Thanks


4 posted on 07/20/2009 9:42:12 PM PDT by Steelfish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman

Amen


5 posted on 07/20/2009 9:51:33 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman
Someone please give me the specific scripture verse (or verses) that give the doctrine of “Purgatory”.

Zechariah 13 (JPS Divine Name Restored)
(8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith YHWH, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. (9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say: 'It is My people', and they shall say: 'YHWH is my God.'

I believe the fire is the cleansing/purification.

6 posted on 07/20/2009 9:54:06 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting.

Someone said, “Please give the specific Scripture reference for the doctrine of purgatory” — There are a couple of Scripture references in the article itself, if one reads it carefully. Granted, they are rather indirect, maybe (?).

I especially enjoyed the historical stuff and especially the part about the catacombs.


7 posted on 07/20/2009 9:54:31 PM PDT by zorro8987
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

I thought of another Scripture reference.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

blueletterbible.org

I’m not saying it definitely proves it; I’m just saying, it seems to be at least indirectly related to this.


8 posted on 07/20/2009 9:57:00 PM PDT by zorro8987
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

a related topic:

the book “The Great Divorce” by CS Lewis would be great related reading; as would certain essays by George MacDonald.


9 posted on 07/20/2009 10:00:42 PM PDT by zorro8987
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman
May I suggest you read the article before posting a criticism? Your request for scripture was addressed in the posted article by the author.

2 Mac 12:42-46
Mt 12:32
1 Cor. 3:13,15

You won't find the word "purgatory" in these verses, any more than you will find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, but that doesn't make the doctrine of Purgatory false, no more than the absence of the word "Trinity" makes the Trinity a false doctrine, which of course its not, as I'm sure you agree.

Also, as the article mentioned, the early Church fathers believed in Purgatory long before the abuse of indulgences in the Middle Ages -- the abuses that eventually triggered the Reformation. So, that criticism is not valid, because it's based on an anachronism.

With that said, I appreciate your reply and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Should be an interesting discussion. God bless.
10 posted on 07/20/2009 10:02:34 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Steelfish

You’re welcome!


11 posted on 07/20/2009 10:04:07 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers; annalex; NYer; Salvation

Purgatory ping!


12 posted on 07/20/2009 10:14:47 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner
This is highly slanted to the Roman Catholic Church's view. It bears repeating from an earlier post:

If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of ALL sin, it must mean our past, present and future sins - since we did not exist when he was crucified - are paid in full. Why must there be something more that must be done to be sanctified? Somehow, our sufferings, no matter how long they last, can be placed alongside Christ's sufferings as equal? Can you not see the error in that thinking?

The very concept of a need for purgatory, meaning a place of purgation or cleansing, is totally rebutted by hundreds of Scriptures that state the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. The very idea that the sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross was somehow insufficient, or not quite enough, for our salvation is a complete contradiction of the Gospel. He alone is the propitiation (satisfactory payment) for our sins, mortal or venial or whatever - all sins.

It boils down to the basics - are we saved by grace or works? Because it CANNOT be both (see Romans 11:6).

Respectfully.

13 posted on 07/20/2009 10:18:03 PM PDT by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ET(end tyranny)

Zechariah 13 is another good verse to support the doctrine of Purgatory.


14 posted on 07/20/2009 10:18:06 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman; Mr Rogers
The concept of nothing impure entering Heaven is one indirect prooftext of Purgatory; the phrasing in the discourse on some sins being not pardonable even in the life to come (Mt 12:32) would make no sense unless there are sins that are forgiven only in the life to come. Also, the parable of the unmerciful debtor depicts a punishment for sin that is temporal, "until the last farthing is paid".

But none of that would be decisive if it were not for 1 Cor 3, where a man is likened to a building which stands on the foundation of Christ. Such man is saved, but not until the imperfections in his soul are burned off. Note that this purification doesn't start till all his works are "made manifest", hence after his death. This is the idea of purgatory in its essence: the temporary place state of purification of a soul whose sins have already been forgiven through the superabundant merit of Christ.

Here is this passage in Douay translation:

8 ...And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. 9 For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

(1 Cor. 3)

The explanation that Protestants give is that the passage speaks of extra rewards that some of the elect get according to their good works, in addition to justification given for their faith, but that is merely reformulating the same doctrine in terms of losing a reward rather than suffering through purification. No matter how we call this state, it is clear that it is a state that follows natural death, involves some kind of suffering, available to the saved only, and has purification (removal of base material) as its end.

15 posted on 07/20/2009 10:19:44 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Yes, but it is 10:18 here in Arizona, and I’m ready for bed. In 7 1/2 hours, both dogs and horses will be asking for food, and neither worries about Purgatory.

Good Night, bdeaner!


16 posted on 07/20/2009 10:20:30 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: ET(end tyranny)

This quote is quite obviously speaking of the nation of Israel in the last days. Otherwise, you imply that only 1/3 of mankind in all of history will be saved and go to heaven.


17 posted on 07/20/2009 10:21:24 PM PDT by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: annalex

“...but not until the imperfections in his soul are burned off”

You do not find that in 1 Corinthians 3!


18 posted on 07/20/2009 10:21:52 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: zorro8987

Good one!


19 posted on 07/20/2009 10:22:56 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers

Sometimes I wish I were a dog or horse so I didn’t have to worry about Purgatory! LOL. This thread isn’t going anywhere anytime soon — plenty of time for conversation tomorrow or the next day. Goodnight!


20 posted on 07/20/2009 10:24:51 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
Somehow, our sufferings, no matter how long they last, can be placed alongside Christ's sufferings as equal? Can you not see the error in that thinking?

What error? Christ did call us to take up the Cross. St. Paul taught the exact same thing you call "error":

[I] now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister ... ( Col. 1:24f)

It is the Catholic teaching that salvation is by grace alone, as Romans 11:6 (and Eph. 2:8-10, and many others) teach. But it is not the Catholic teaching that salvation is by faith alone, which is dead without good works (James 2). At any rate, the doctrine of Purgatory is not about who is and who is not saved: the souls in Purgatory are all saved, by the grace of Christ.

21 posted on 07/20/2009 10:31:53 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Excellent posts!


22 posted on 07/20/2009 10:36:45 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers

“If man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss”.

Stubble burns, gold doesn’t.


23 posted on 07/20/2009 10:37:19 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman
"Purgatory" is simply a man-made concept to promote the Catholic Church's position far earlier in her history for getting scared people to pay the church to get their way out of Purgatory.

Yep. Mysticism, tyranny and superstition. Same old/same old.

"The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory...is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God" (Article 22 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England produced during the English Reformation)

24 posted on 07/20/2009 10:44:07 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Thank you for posting. For the life of me I don’t understand how this doctrine can be called unscriptural.


25 posted on 07/20/2009 10:44:41 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Eckleburg
Article 22 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England produced during the English Reformation

LOL, good one.

26 posted on 07/20/2009 10:46:39 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner

Purgatory is not based upon Scripture, and it is an ungodly doctrine. It denies the heart of the Gospel that a man is justified by faith alone and not by the works of the law. It is the gift of God. Every Christian is accounted as righteous before God and forgiven of all his sins. To deny this, is to deny that Christ fully satisfied the demands of the law by his active and passive obedience. Purgatory is NOT found in the Scriptures, and it is contrary to the Gospel itself.


27 posted on 07/20/2009 11:02:16 PM PDT by Nosterrex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
Otherwise, you imply that only 1/3 of mankind in all of history will be saved and go to heaven.

Do you know the numbers of the true believers? How many muslims are there in the world? How many atheists?

28 posted on 07/20/2009 11:06:27 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman
If Purgatory is “Man Made” in concept and reality -— Why then does Maccabees clearly show that thee Jewish people prayed for the dead?

As stated in the original post, Maccabees is an historical text, even if you do not include it in the Protestant Bible.

Jesus, himself, prayed for Lazarus, did he not?

Furthermore, the Deuterocannical Books, including Maccabees, were most surely present in the Temples, when Jesus, himself, visited the Temples.

Jesus never spoke against those Books, which are accepted by Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

The early Church CLEARLY believed that there was a purgatory.

Biblical quotes were given, in this post, which CLEARLY show that those who are bound, eventually, for Heaven, might not go there directly.

Yes, the Catholic Church is the one of the oldest institution in the world, other than the Jewish Faith and a few other religions.

The Catholic Church is, without a doubt, the oldest CHRISTIAN Faith.

And nobody, until Martin Luther, really objected to the notion of praying for the dead.

Luther was a “results oriented” person. Luther wanted the abuse of indulgences to stop, so Luther “Reformed” Scripture by removing anything that would support the idea of purgatory or any prayer for the dead.

Look at it this way, Protestants:

You insist that ALL Christian belief MUST come from the Bible and the Bible alone.

However, there is NOTHING in the Bible that would, in any way, DISPROVE purgatory.

There are a few verses, even in a Protestant Bible, that would seem to support purgatory.

Most importantly, there is NOTHING in the Bible which states that all faith must come from the Bible.

Protestants seem to forget that St. Paul and St. Peter and the other Apostles were not always in agreement with each other. It is not possible for any one person to know precisely what might come, in the afterlife, for ourselves or anyone else. It is nothing short of bizarre to be so steadfast and certain in your Biblical interpretations, against the idea of purgatory, when it is CLEAR that the early Christians would not accept your interpretations.

If those Christians who died in the early 1st and 2nd Centuries obviously provoked prayers, on their behalf, from the faithful, is it not a bit arrogant for us to decide, 2,000 years later, that those who might well have actually met Jesus, or an Apostle, were less aware of His teachings than any of us?

Pride, itself, is a deadly sin.

I fully realize that the Catholic Church has made some huge mistakes, through out history. I also believe that the Catholics and the Orthodox, the two OLDEST Christian faiths, are far closer to the truth than others.

One other thing:

Those of you who are such literalists:

“For thine is the Kingdom the Power and the Glory” was never said by Jesus. These are the “gloss” or the notes of a Catholic Monk, in the margins of a parchment.

“This is my body, This is my Blood” are two things Catholic DO take literally, and many Protestants do not.

Also, the first Miracle of Jesus was to turn water into wine, at the Wedding at Canna, and the last miracle of Jesus, in the Flesh, was to change wine into his own Blood, at the last supper.

“Do this in memory of me” means that we are also to partake of his Body and Blood.

Many Protestants avoid this literal interpretation, as well.

My point?

You are literal when it suits you, and you avoid the obvious, when that suits you. Such is faith, for all of us, I suppose.

“Peter, you are rock, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, whatsoever you loose on Earth, shall be loosed in Heaven”

It would appear that “build” means Jesus STARTED with Peter, and that Jesus recognized the need for a final authority, for the Church, here on Earth.

It would also appear that Jesus gave Peter, a HUMAN, and a leader of the CHRISTIAN Church, the full POWER to INVENT Purgatory, even if none had existed, prior to the moment that Jesus appointed Peter the first Pope.

No other explanation of the direct words of Jesus makes any sense.

And if Peter can make laws that apply in Heaven -—why not the successors to St. Peter?

More to the point, if Peter believed in Purgatory, guess what? Purgatory EXISTS, by the very promise of Jesus.

Can you prove that Peter did NOT believe in Purgatory?

Can you explain why the Catholic Church, which has custody of the body of St. Peter and St. Paul, could possibly believe in Purgatory, for its ENTIRE history?

Could you explain why not one single council of the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church shows any disagreement on the topic of Purgatory? How could they be so wrong, from the very beginning?

And again, can you explain why Jesus prayed in Jewish Temples which contained the the Books of Maccabees and He never repudiated their obvious support of prayers for the dead?

Anyway, again, Martin Luther hated indulgences. Therefore, Luther made sure that Scripture could not support Purgatory, as a way to attack indulgences.

Martin Luther changed Scripture, but he did not have the power to change history.

The Jews at the time of Jesus believed in prayer for the dead.

29 posted on 07/20/2009 11:07:12 PM PDT by Kansas58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman
More Scripture on Purgatory from ,a href="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html">Scripture Catholic

Note: I would recommend going back and reading these in their original context before drawing any conclusions. But here they are for your reference.

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.
30 posted on 07/20/2009 11:07:16 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman

There are also certain passages in the New Testament that the Church commonly cites as containing evidence of the existence of purgatory. In the Gospel of Matthew, Christ warns the Pharisees that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next (Mt. 12:32). Here Christ recognizes that there exists a state beyond this world in which the penalty due for sins, which were pardoned as to guilt in the world, is forgiven. St. Paul also affirms the reality of purgatory. In his first letter to the Corinthians, he says that “the fire will assay the quality of everyone’s work,” and “if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” (1 Cor 3:13, 15). These words clearly imply some penal suffering. Since he connects it so closely with the divine judgment, it can hardly be limited to suffering in this world, but seems to include the idea of purification through suffering after death, namely in purgatory.


31 posted on 07/20/2009 11:09:29 PM PDT by Kansas58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Nosterrex

You expressed the Protestant tradition very well. How does it connect to the doctrine under discussion? (The souls in Purgatory are saved souls, by the grace of Christ; their suffering has nothing to do with the works of the law).


32 posted on 07/20/2009 11:11:51 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Nosterrex
It denies the heart of the Gospel that a man is justified by faith alone and not by the works of the law.

That's not the heart of the Gospel. Faith alone cannot save you, if you do not have the grace of God. First grace, then faith AND works justify and sanctify us. That's what Scripture tells us. Faith without works is dead. See James 2:2.

Tons of Scriptural evidence for Purgatory has been cited. See above.
33 posted on 07/20/2009 11:13:01 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Nosterrex
Every Christian is accounted as righteous before God and forgiven of all his sins. To deny this, is to deny that Christ fully satisfied the demands of the law by his active and passive obedience.

Then why did Jesus say:

Revelation 2
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

What does Jesus want people to overcome?

34 posted on 07/20/2009 11:13:26 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
Actually, Martin Luther contorted Scripture a bit on the “Grace” and the “Works” issue.

No honest translation of the Greek texts that Luther tried to use, in his doctrine, supports the final translation that Luther or the Protestant Reformation came up with.

Again, Luther decided what he wanted, and then Luther altered Scripture to support Luther's views.

35 posted on 07/20/2009 11:17:43 PM PDT by Kansas58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner
nothing defiled can enter heaven (Rev 21:27)

This verse is about The New Jerusalem. In (partial) context:

Revelation 21
 1Then I saw (A)a new heaven and a new earth; for (B)the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
 2And I saw (C)the holy city, (D)new Jerusalem, (E)coming down out of heaven from God, (F)made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, (G)the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will (H)dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them[a],
.....
 24(BI)The nations will walk by its light, and the (BJ)kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.


 27and (BO)nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are (BP)written in the Lamb's book of life.


Nor does it say anything regarding punishment, or venial sins, or cleansing.






36 posted on 07/20/2009 11:19:34 PM PDT by DoorGunner ( "...and so, all Israel will be saved.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DoorGunner

Nor does it say anything regarding punishment, or venial sins, or cleansing.

and (BO)nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it,


unclean .... cleansing

I think it does


37 posted on 07/20/2009 11:22:36 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: annalex
King Henry the 8th is now considered an expert on Faith?

Even Martin Luther told Henry he had no just cause to leave the Catholic Faith. He did so in writing.

That letter is in the Vatican Museum!

38 posted on 07/20/2009 11:23:45 PM PDT by Kansas58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Nosterrex

Again, your “faith alone” quote is twisted.

Martin Luther, and the King James Bible, both did a terrible job on that particular verse, and they did an even worse job in the interpretation of their poorly translated version.

Martin Luther decided what he wanted, and then wrote a Bible to support his views.


39 posted on 07/20/2009 11:25:38 PM PDT by Kansas58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner
Thank you very much for the invitation to post respectful, critical comments. I will do my best to operate under those guidelines, but if I fall short, please know that it surely was unintentional and not meant to be disrespectful or antagonistic. Please call me out on any offensive comment so I may recant, retract, or make amends.

The Biblegateway.com NIV version of all verses that I reference is included along with the superscript cross-references found in my Zondervan NIV Bible.

On with the discussion ...

In the Biblical Elements Of Purgatory section, the author makes reference to Mattew 12:32 being a New Testament verse supportive of Purgatory. He asserts that Christ recognized a state beyond this world where the penalty for sins is forgiven.

Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this ager or in the age to comes.
rTitus 2:12
sMark 10:30

Titus 2:12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passionsw, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly livesx in this present age,
wTitus 3:3
x2 Timothy 3:12

Mark 10:30 will fail to receive a hundred times as muchc in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to comed, eternal lifee.
cMattew 6:33
dMatthew 12:32
eMatthew 25:46

Reading Matthew 12:32, one can see that the relevant phrase in that verse is either in this age or in the age to come. Clearly, Christ refers to two distinctly separate ages, one occuring after the one. The word age in the first half of the relevant phrase is cross-referenced with Titus 2:12. Reading Titus 2:12, one can see that Titus was referring to the age in which we live now, where we must resist worldly passions. The word come in the second half of the relevant phrase is cross-referenced with Mark 10:30. Reading Mark 10:30, one can see that Christ again refers to two separately distinct ages, the first one being the present age in which we live, and the second being the age to come. However, this time Christ goes further to define the age to come as eternal life.

So, clearly Christ refers to two different ages: our present life and our eternal life. However, nowhere in Matthew 12:32 does Christ indicate that the penalty for our sins will be forgiven in the coming age, our eternal life. To obtain eternal life, one's sins must be forgiven. That forgiveness is offered freely through Christ's death on the cross when we ask him to be our Lord and Savior. To reside in the presence of the Holy God, one must be pure and without sin. God will not and cannot accept us into his Holy presence unless we are pure, because he cannot abide unholiness. Therefore we must be pure before we can enter his presence. Since that is the case and Christ references only two ages, then the second age (eternal life) cannot be "a state beyond this world in which the penalty due for sins ... is forgiven." Our sins must be forgiven before ever reaching that second age.

I don't believe the author makes the case that Matthew 12:32 supports the concept of Purgatory. I welcome all comments for discussion of my analysis.

40 posted on 07/20/2009 11:26:31 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Character, Leadership, and Loyalty matter - Be an example, no matter the cost.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nosterrex

“Peter you are Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my Church”
Peter believed in Purgatory.
Peter and the early Church had no problem with the Deuterocanonical texts, which supported purgatory.


41 posted on 07/20/2009 11:27:41 PM PDT by Kansas58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Kansas58

I think we know the Church of England by her fruit very well.


42 posted on 07/20/2009 11:30:23 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Nosterrex

Indeed, sir.


43 posted on 07/20/2009 11:37:07 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Character, Leadership, and Loyalty matter - Be an example, no matter the cost.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: bdeaner
Some more information on Purgatory for those who would like more.

The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]

Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus] What Happens After Death?
Purgatory
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?

Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory
Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

44 posted on 07/20/2009 11:37:31 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TheBattman

Your scripturural references are in some of the links in this list.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2297210/posts?page=44#44


45 posted on 07/20/2009 11:39:29 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Nosterrex

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2297210/posts?page=44#44


46 posted on 07/20/2009 11:41:51 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: BuckeyeTexan

Yes. Matthew 12:32 merely suggests that the “age to come” has stages that involve forgiveness. It alone does not prove anything beyond that.

Let us not forget that the souls in purgatory according to the doctrine under discussion possess the eternal life already.


47 posted on 07/20/2009 11:44:17 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Eckleburg
At our death we are either glorified with Christ in heaven or condemned to eternal damnation in hell.

Of course, "doctor". I wouldn't know the Catholic teaching if it weren't for you.

49 posted on 07/21/2009 12:07:38 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 301-346 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson