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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
The answer to this is embedded within the bigger picture. I believe very strongly that God revealed to the prophets in the past the end result, meaning the “New Jerusalem,” but revealed to them way back then just enough information for them to get by, always having the hope of possessing the land when they were in it, and always having the hope that they will return to it to be inhabited forever when they were driven out of Israel. They do not realize that they were promised the New Jerusalem, and that the Covenant that God made with Abraham was and has always been the New Jerusalem revealed at the end of the book of Revelation. But aside from that, that is the bigger, bigger picture, that is so big that the mind has to be able to take on a lot at one time to even grasp the size and scope of its impact.

So, if I am understanding you correctly, the promise to Abraham regarding the “eternal possession” of the land was ultimately a spiritual one, enjoyed by His spiritual people.

I can agree with that. The new Jerusalem is presently in heaven, where it will remain until the eternal state (Heb. 12:22; Rev. 21:1-3), after Christ subdues all His enemies (1 Cor. 15:24,25). It is this heavenly Jerusalem, rather than a carnal city, that Abraham longed for (Heb 11:16).

As for the Jews, I still stick by what I said about the Jews returning to the land of Israel in 1948 as being a part of prophecy.

You can stick by it if you wish, but as I pointed out the is no real proof from the Bible that such is the case. Modern Israel does not in any way satisfy the biblical criteria for a nation to be called “Israel”. See post 27. To which I would add one more item; that modern Israel does not occupy the physical land promised to Abraham (Gen. 15:18; Joshua 1:4; 2 Sam 8:3).

That was a small step that slides within the direction of the bigger picture. It is perfectly compatible with the bigger picture that is designed to complete the remaining unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament.

Unfortunately, this is more of a rationalization of your personal views rather than a solid argument from the Bible. Which prophecies of the OT remain unfulfilled today is precisely the question at hand. The argument advanced by futurists is less than compelling, esp. in light of the fuller revelation of the NT.

I truly believe that this explanation provides an answer to the question, “How can you explain God’s promise of an “everlasting possession”?” When Christ returns to set up his Kingdom with the New Jerusalem, His Kingdom will never die.

If you are speaking of the futurist millennial reign, I would just point out that there is nothing in the Bible to connect the new Jerusalem on earth prior to the eternal state (i.e., Rev. 21).

60 posted on 09/05/2009 3:52:47 PM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
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To: topcat54

The “New Jerusalem” is not just a spiritual city, it is a literal city. In Revelation Chapter 21, verses 1 and 2 John explains the vision given to him regarding the future here on earth.

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Add to that the prophecy in Isaiah which states...

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NIV)

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
—Isaiah 2:27 (KJV)

Jesus is supposed to reign and rule here on earth. That is the promise, that is the prophecy. It is after the Great Tribulation, Christ is supposed to return with all of those who accepted him as their savior to rule and reign on earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4).

The New Jerusalem comes after (Rev. 21:1-2). Jesus will sit in the modern Jerusalem after he destroys the Antichrist by the brightness of his coming. After that thousand year reign, the Devil will be unleashed, causing people to sin, and people will sin. In other words, “here we go again.”

Jesus will sit in the temple, in the Modern city of Jerusalem during the thousand years. The New Jerusalem comes after the thousand years as is the order that occurs in Revelation. The thousand years is mentioned in Revelation as occurring before New Jerusalem is placed on earth.

The re-emergence of the state of Israel in 1948 set in motion a mandate for the beginning of the rest of the Old Testament prophecies to be fulfilled. The modern state of Israel perfectly fits the description of being a burdensome stone in the last days (Zechariah 12:3). The political alliance between Russia, China, and Iran align effectively regarding the war of Gog and Magog mentioned in the book of Ezekiel. There are too many proofs. Not only that, but the most influential Jewish, Christian ministers recognize Israel as the fulfillment of prophecy.

Every effective prophecy scholar and every well known prophecy minister shares this view as well. It is the view adopted by Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, David Reagan, John Ankerberg, Jerry Falwell, Perry Stone, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, Ed Hindson, John Hagee, and many others. It was even supported by the late John F. Walvoord, David Breese, Zola Levitt—an Orthadox Jew turned Christian, and so many others. It is even taught at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, Liberty University, etc. Its truth is enduring and has endured for over 60 years and is continuing to endure.

“Replacement theology” which is the position you seem to express, is the belief that God replaced his old covenant with Israel and established it with the church. There are many holes in replacement theology. Some have even used it as a means to justify their antisemitic prejudices.

Calling me a “futurist”—which is a term I’ve never heard of prior to this debate gives the impression to others that I, and people like me are just another sect, another division of an unsettled debate. When you incorporate the Bible with actual common sense and reason, they all compliment each other. God is the writer of natural law, and as such natural law has to compliment the Bible. There is only one truth. There is only one God, and when he demonstrates his POWER, like the way he did Israel from 1948-today, it is easy (for me anyway) to see God’s plan for the end times come to pass.

I know why the modern state of Israel exists. He will use it to prove to the world that he exists. They are also a nation that will have to endure fierce hardships that will cause them to come to faith in Jesus Christ and adopt him as their Messiah. Just as it is in a play, the stage has to be set and prepared before the actors come on stage. The actors are on stage, and they are in the process of moving the story towards the climax, and of course after the climax comes the grand finale.


61 posted on 09/06/2009 8:57:37 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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