Posted on 09/06/2009 3:50:15 PM PDT by NYer
***It is not possible to insult or defame anyone who repeatedly posts content which has been disproved with swathes of the Gospel.
You never had done so; you haven’t shown the Biblical stance of purgatory.***
I have, and I have posted it to you. The upshot is that nothing impure shall enter the Kingdom. Revelation 21:
23
17 The city had no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gave it light, and its lamp was the Lamb.
24
The nations will walk by its light, 18 and to it the kings of the earth will bring their treasure.
25
During the day its gates will never be shut, and there will be no night there.
26
The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there,
27
but nothing unclean will enter it
If you are not completely sinless at death, then you are impure. Therefore there is a process of cleansing. This is the process of Purgatory. There is specific reference in II Macabbees which the heretics have seen fit to purge from their Scripture.
***I figured you’d say as much. Catholics are so used to be judge, jury, and executioner of all that it just comes natural to attack another person’s relationship with Christ.***
Catholics cannot Judge anyone. This is anti Catholic rhetoric.
***Go ahead, now tell me I am evil, that I do not know the Savior. I will not counter. I know you have called me an illegitimate son of evil.***
How do you know this? Prove it or apologize right now. You have attributed much to me that is in error.
***Scalp getting a little warm?***
I am waiting for an apology.
***After all of our discussions, do you not comprehend the role of the Pope yet?
A man who leads the church, who can make a pronouncement that must be accepted as the Gospel truth. That about sum it up?***
Absolutely not. What a nasty statement.
***I have. The Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ, which includes the Orthodox and the Latin branches
Not according to the Orthodox.***
Prove it. Or then apologize.
***They have some pretty serious issues with your “claims” in many areas of theology, and do not consider any “reunification” with your offshoot a possibility.***
Prove it.
***So you are admitting that you intentionally are out in the cold?
The Orthodox do not state I will never be saved for being a Protestant.***
Neither do the Catholics. We cannot Judge.
***I am not condemned to Hell, as you Catholics are so willing to do.***
Prove that Catholics condemn anyone to Hell.
***If that is being out in the cold, then I welcome the snow!***
Given the nature of your posts, the persistent errors in spite of correction and the virulent anti Catholic bias shown, I suspect that it may be a touch warm. Not many folks make it to the 9th level.
Absolutely false. Satan is the father of all lies.
Re your post #12: I’m a little confused. You have in the past said that the Bible—and even the “new testament”—is unreliable and full of contradictions. Yet I see that doesn’t prevent you from quoting it. Why quote a book that is unreliable and self-contradictory in order to “prove” something?
I know the role of the Church, to follow the great commission. I also know the role of the Church is not to act as judge, jury, and executioner. And to not force men to blind obedience to its own words.
Really? I am offended.
I am sorry, brother, please show me where I have offended you and I will honestly as for forgiveness.
Then why do you guys do it?
My church does not limit me in my knowledge and insight gained from studying the Bible. On the contrary, my church encourages me to spend time daily in the Word, learning and growing in understanding and maturity as guided by the Holy Spirit.
The church exists to evangelize and strengthen each other, not to strengthen itself.
What does this mean?
My church was called a simple organization by you and in fact you have often denied that Protestants can have churches. Thus I referenced a similar non-church organization, and one associated with Catholics (who, I might add, are officially opposed to gambling except for that non-gambling gambling called Bingo).
Are you attributing things to me? I have never called you a bastard, nor a son of Satan and I will thank you for a public apology.
You have stated that Protestants are illegitimate Christians. You have stated that Protestants sprang from the evil actions of Luther. Thus any and all Protestants are illegitimate, and the result of evil.
Me, personally? No. Me, and all other Protestants corporately? Yes. I'd ask you to apologize for this - again - but I know you won't since in your mind it is acceptable to state such things, because your church says it is OK.
Not at all. I'm sure the Catechism is in direct opposition to your own personal interpretation of the Bible, but who cares?
Where did he say that?
LOL
Please keep in mind that The Church Jesus founded comes down to one thing that matters most - the Holy Eucharist. That's it. I've had issues with 'management' at one Church, and we made changes (pushed for management changes). Management can get whacky, we are just all mere mortals. However the importance of the Eucharist has not changed for 2000+ years. Best of Labor Day to you, too.
So how does one avoid this "bibliolatry?" By believing G-d's Word is full of myths and errors?
Donal Anthony Foley is right. A suspicion of the Bible entered the Catholic Church at the time of the Reformation and paved the way for its openness to evolutionism.
***“God leaves nothing to chance.”
He didn’t. His Word has all the basics made plain. ***
If it were that plain, why would Peter warn us of misinterpreting Paul? Why would the example of eunuch be included in Scripture? Why would Jesus have laboured for so long attempting to teach the faith? The examples of the thousands of Protestant beliefs put the lie to the idea that Scripture is self explanatory. Remember Matthew 4:
1
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2
He fasted for forty days and forty nights, 2 and afterwards he was hungry.
3
The tempter approached and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread.”
4
3 He said in reply, “It is written: ‘One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.’”
5
4 Then the devil took him to the holy city, and made him stand on the parapet of the temple,
6
and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written: ‘He will command his angels concerning you and ‘with their hands they will support you, lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”
7
Jesus answered him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.’”
8
Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence,
9
and he said to him, “All these I shall give to you, if you will prostrate yourself and worship me.” 5
10
At this, Jesus said to him, “Get away, Satan! It is written: ‘The Lord, your God, shall you worship and him alone shall you serve.’”
11
Then the devil left him and, behold, angels came and ministered to him.
The devil is the father of self-interpretation. The Church was created to be the teacher to stand in for Christ until He returns.
***Nor do you need to read the catechism to find out which scriptures to ignore...***
But non Catholics ignore the Scriptures which authorize the Church.
***Purgatory denies the power of God and completeness of the sacrifice of Jesus by suggesting that, having been forgiven, we still need to be punished.***
It is unfortunate that you still persist in a misunderstanding of Purgatory. It is not a punishment; whoever told you that it is is wrong.
***And while scripture plainly says our forgiveness is complete, Purgatory says no.***
Again, a misunderstanding of Purgatory. I am beginning to despair of posting the same lessons again and again to eyes that will not see and ears that will not hear.
Your posting of Paul does not gainsay anything about Purgatory. But 1 Corinthians 3 says:
15
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Purgatory is not about punishment. It is about cleansing.
***There are too many scriptures contradicting the very premise Purgatory is built on - I’d have to quote the entire NT and most of the Old.***
Give it a start, if only to humour me.
***Obscene: “1. offensive to morality or decency; indecent; depraved...3. abominable; disgusting; repulsive.” Those fit Purgatory, to anyone who has seen the glory of the Gospel.***
You appear to misunderstand Purgatory as much as you misunderstand the Church.
***“Do you know what Mariology consists of?”
I quoted a blasphemous passage declaring Mary’s feast day. “Let all, therefore, try to approach with greater trust the throne of grace and mercy of our Queen and Mother, and beg for strength in adversity, light in darkness, consolation in sorrow; above all let them strive to free themselves from the slavery of sin and offer an unceasing homage, filled with filial loyalty, to their Queenly Mother. Let her churches be thronged by the faithful, her feast-days honored; may the beads of the Rosary be in the hands of all; may Christians gather, in small numbers and large, to sing her praises in churches, in homes...”***
More misunderstanding. If you would, please do some research as to the makeup of the kingdoms of that time. The Queen Mother of the ruler in these kingdoms had a special place in the running of the kingdom and many people appealed to her to intervene with the King for special petitions.
***“The Bible is created; if I recall correctly from your posts, you come very close to worshiping the Bible...”
Really? I consider it the word of God - “God-breathed”, to quote the scriptures.***
Yet more misunderstanding. The word of God may be God breathed, but the translation into print is by mortal men. Remember the opening lines of Luke; and also remember that the Epistles are by bishops to their flock.
***So - why does the Catholic Church fear scripture? Why did God “breath” words so clumsily that only the Catholic Church can know their meaning? Why are Catholics taught to read Scripture by the light of the Catechism, rather than the Catechism by the light of God’s Word?***
Fear? We freely have preserved Scripture and given it to the world. The Bible is not God’s Word. The Word is Jesus. The Bible is man’s attempt at writing Scripture.
***If the plain meaning of God’s word didn’t contradict Catholic teaching, then Catholics could interpret scripture with the Holy Spirit to lead them. If the Word of God isn’t authoritative, how can the word of the church be?***
The Word of God (Jesus) is authoritative. The words on the pages of the Bible are to be interpreted by the foundation and pillar of Truth (the Church). The only self interpretation of Scripture was by satan; the eunuch represents all men who have not been guided by the Church. If Scripture was so easily understood, the Church would not be necessary.
Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive (Name) himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.
Tell me that the highlighted parts are not condemnation. Please. It's also interesting that the burning torment to which the ex-communicated person is judged and condemned (yes, those are the correct words) continues not until Jesus is satisfied, but the church is satisfied.
Jesus claimed the sole right to judgment; apparently, the Catholic Church has taken over that role, and now I - as a follower of the heretic Luther, who has read his writings without the approval of the Pope - am to be punished until the Church - not Jesus - is satisfied.
Those are the words you posted. Do you deny them? Do you deny they state judgment and condemnation? Do you want to stick with your story that the church does not judge or condemn?
Why? Can you show some independent research that shows that exit polls are inherently inaccurate, beyond 4-5%?
If that ever happens, non-scientific exit polling will still not be proof of anything.
Can you shed some light on this? What other research leads you to conclude as much?
I had a good Labor Day breakfast this morning...It was not the same or a continuation of the Labor Day breakfast I ate in 1959...That breakfast is gone...Never to be repeated...
Jesus died once...Never to die again...And never to continually die...
Jesus can not continually die...Jesus is not on the Cross...
Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
The scripture does not allow for your interpretation nor your tradition...
IF your religion wants to make the claim that it's priests turn a wafer into the flesh of Jesus and that they turn wine into the blood of Jesus, that's fine....
IF your religion wants to claim Jesus is still on the Cross with you guys re presenting His sacrifice for you on a daily and hourly basis, that's fine as well...
But don't then drag the scriputres into it...That portion of your theology has nothing to do with scripture...In fact, it's contrary to scripture...
Jesus is not here...He is risen, never to be sacrificed nor continue to be sacrificed again...
Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
It is finished and had been for 2000 years...
The burden is yours. Non-scientific polling is useless. Any correlation to reality is coincidental.
You follow Luther? Not Christ?
Please explain how Catechism 841 does not state that merely acknowledging the Creator earns you the right to worship at the Throne of God.
As the Catholic Church returns to it’s roots - the people will also return to the Church...
You are mistaken. Campion is Catholic. The Catholic Church does not claim Jesus is still on the Cross.
I suppose you condemn the Iwo Jima memorial because it claims those Marines are still atop the mountain holding the flag.
Simple. It does not state such. It states what it states, not what you claim it states. Show me "merely acknowledging the Creator earns you the right to worship at the Throne of God" in CCC 841.
To be saved one must fit all the requirements of being Catholic.
If you do not fit the requirements of being a Catholic, you are not saved. Is it a requirement of being a Catholic that you must accept:
1. PurgatoryIf I do not accept these 5 points, then I am not a Catholic, am I? And thus - per his own words - cannot be saved.
2. Mariology (including the eternal virginity of Mary)
3. The church as sole arbiter of what the Bible states
4. Transubstantiation
5. The concept of ex cathedra and papal infallibility
Unless you wish to claim otherwise?
Actually, no, those are not the correct words. It says "we judge him condemned" not "we judge and condemn him."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.