Posted on 09/06/2009 3:50:15 PM PDT by NYer
You were at the deathbed of all the popes and can attest that some of them did not repent?
Perhaps you would like to explain, word for word, what the Greek REALLY means?
You are entitled to opinions, but not facts. Take the Greek text. Sit there with a lexicon. You won’t get “Full of grace”. You will get ‘favored one’.
Yes, some of the explanations of Greek are from sites showing why the Catholic Church is wrong...show me a time I’ve whined when someone posted something from This Rock, or any one of a number of Catholic sites. If a Catholic site wants to translate it differently, and can back it up with a good lexicon, have a nut.
I’ve spent hours reading from the Catholic Encyclopedia, or from Vatican websites, as recommended by Catholics on FR. I’m reading (slowly) a book on the Orthodox Church, recommended by an Orthodox member of FR. Truth is truth.
If the so-called anti-Catholic (and you can call ANYONE who disagrees with you anti-Catholic, just as I could call you anti-Baptist) is lying, nail him. If not, deal with it.
The FACT is that the Greek word doesn’t mean “full of grace”. No where. Although “full of grace” does exist, it isn’t used here.
And the only reason for caring is to make Mary “sinless” - which the word also doesn’t mean.
As for a challenge - maybe they did. I was an expert in electronic warfare, not medieval history. I suspect that it wasn’t until late in the Middle Ages that Erasmus and others took a serious look at the Greek again, instead of relying on the Vulgate.
But the history doesn’t change what words mean. And the pro-Catholic sites I’ve read either don’t claim it means full of grace, or relies on the past perfect participle in an incorrect application.
All of this can be discussed without pretending words mean other things than they do.
And you can insinuate that I do. That doesn't make it true.
When you post from CARM, don't expect me to pretend CARM is just some kind of innocent case of "us v. them."
What kind of Christian proselytizes Christians, or denies the Christian faith of other Christians?
...just as I could call you anti-Baptist...
Yet you won't find me lying about what Baptists believe or saying Baptists aren't Christians. But hey, if you want to emulate Matt Slick, go for it.
"you [woman] who has been filled with grace"
I already did.
The FACT is that the Greek word doesn’t mean “full of grace”. No where. Although “full of grace” does exist, it isn’t used here.
Jerome's translation was correct.
You think the list would change if the source was Catholic Answers???
You're on! Just I won't use the descriptive term I used for Corona that the mod found so objectionable...;)
And the controversial dogmata are viewed as promises made to all the faithful but fulfilled in her. She IS sinless (we say); the faithful all will be sinless. She “now” lives in the heavenly courts; all the faithful will live in the heavenly courts.
On that I would agree, but I would go further! The state in which Mary may reside now is no different a state than ANY of us will have when we reach Heaven. Sinless, and living in the Heavenly courts.
Mary is to be revered because of her devotion to God; however, anyone who shows devotion to God is deserving of the same reverence, since we will have the same rewards in Heaven, and are called - by Jesus - His brothers and sisters. Family.
I think Protestants make too big a deal of the “Queen of heaven and earth and of all the saints and angels” thing. Part of this is that since the 16th century we’ve all gotten so legalistic. So when we hear “queen” we think of a kind of political authority.
Actually, this Protestant (raised Catholic - 12 years of Catholic school, never baptized or confirmed a Catholic, though) doesn't have a problem with the label "Queen" as much as I have a problem asking Mary - or any of the Saints - to intercede on my behalf.
Jesus knows all. He sees all. He knows our current state, and He is the sole judge of the quick and the dead. I do not think having another petition Christ on my behalf will change His opinion or judgment of me!
On the contrary, I believe it to be an affront to Jesus; if I am not worthy of what I ask, how is going and asking his mother or another Saint "put in a good word for me" going to change things? It won't, because Jesus knows all!
The beauty of Christianity - of God's gift of Jesus - is that we can talk straight to Him! We do not need a Priest or Rabbi or Imam or Lama or Monk or any holy man to take our prayers and petitions to Christ; He will take them directly.
Using an intermediary - to me - smacks of either bribery/cajoling (using Mary to bring our petitions, in the vain hope that "Jesus won't listen to me, but He'll listen to her!") or deception ("If I ask a Saint to ask this of Jesus, maybe He won't know it really came from me, so He'll say yes").
Additionally, praying for intercession by others leads new and weak Christians astray, as a large percentage still believe you pray TO the person directly, not THROUGH the person. Idolatry is a very serious issue with that setup.
So, for this Protestant, using an intercessionary figure like Mary or a Saint is actually a bad thing; it denies the gift of God - our direct "hotline to The Man" so to speak - and it can lead new Christians into heretical beliefs.
Note that I do NOT denigrate the need to learn, read, and meditate on the lives of Mary and the Saints! Rather, we should use them - and all the great figures of the Bible - as examples of how to live Godly lives, and how to correct ourselves when we go astray. There is much to be gained in personal growth from their examples.
But I do not believe they will "help" in any way in relations to our judgment by Jesus; in fact, I believe if the Saints and Mary are truly given to God, they would reject our pleads for intercession, as the way is already laid bare; it is for us to go straight to Him, not through another.
"Come unto Me, all who are weary, and I will give you rest". We go to Him, not to a person who was great and ask them to pass some rest on over here.
Oh yeah, one more thing: I think what interferes with the conversation is the tendency to isolate and separate gestation and parturition as biological functions happening not in and to Mary but only in and to her body. I think this suggests an unbiblical idea of what a human is.
What made Mary special to Jesus wasn't her biological connection; ANY woman could have biologically born Him! What made her special was her SPIRITUAL devotion to Him. And that is what we can each have, and are called to have. And Jesus recognized that anyone who has such a devotion is indeed His family, as much as Mary or any other blood relatives.
Matthew 18:17 is often used by Catholics to justify "the authority of the Church". However, you need to read that verse by Christ in full context:
15 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Why do I post this? It shows how to confront a fellow brother in Christ - which the Pope is - when they sin against you, or against others. You take them up personally. If a resolution is not reached, then you take them up with 2-3 fellow brothers. If still no resolution then the church as a whole. If they do not repent, they are to be expelled.
There is no exclusion for "except for bishops, or leaders, or the Pope". None.
Galatians 6:1, Ephesians 4:25, Colossians 3:13 all talk about correction and holding each other accountable. There are no exemptions for roles.
We are to hold ALL fellow believers accountable, regardless of their station in life. That is what the Bible says.
I believe the biggest problem that most Protestants have with the Papacy can be boiled down to the Pope's position of inerrancy. Not just in his ability to speak ex cathedra but in the way the church corporate cannot challenge or remove him for failings personally. He cannot be rebuked; thus he is given "virtual impeccability" in his life because fellow brothers in Christ cannot - or will not - correct him.
That is a failing not just of the institution, but of the corrupt Pope and of the believers in the church at that time.
All I can say about those sons of guns is I sure hope they repented.
Part of the problem is related to the whole sacraments/ordinances disagreement. Maybe I can look at it with fresh eyes/mind tomorrow. As i understood it, one consequence of the Donatist view was the if you were baptized by a minister they thought unworthy, they said the Baptism wasn't valid, while the "orthodox" position was that the worthiness of the minister does not affect the sacraments over which he presides.
Interesting. I had never heard of the Donatists before.
I’m about to head for bed myself. I’m in no shape for a serious discussion now. I can barely read about Obama’s speech with any comprehension...
I don’t know ANY former Catholics who are suffering in any way from leaving the church. Catholics always say people aren’t catechized correctly but that’s bull, too. I’m sure there are many reasons why people leave, but suffering because of it, nah.
Amen, PugetSS!
I thank God for Martin Luther and the reformation!
Yes it has, but why then did about 54% of Catholics vote for Obama???
Yes, the Body of Christ is the One True Church. And its members are in all manner of churches.
Going to heaven has little to do with church membership, esp. Catholic church membership. It has everything to do with receiving the Lord Jesus Christ into your life and living the way He chooses for us to live. The One True Church still gets it wrong.
You sure are!
Just confess it to Jesus. It might take all night but heck, He’s got the time.
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